Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[USArmyBJJ]

Hi Thai Bri (and everyone else reading this),

If you had visting friends from the USA, and had beaten them at every friendly tennis match at your local club.... Would it be true then to claim every USA tennis player is crap? Or that tennis is a game for folks with lacking hand-eye coordination?

No - but I would hope that your friends would at least ask the question, "Is there something superior in the other person's technique and/or training that might account for our consistent losses?" They may answer the question in the affirmative or the negative. The important thing is to consider it thoughtfully.

The past (humble and effective) Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) teachers I've encountered have always stressed to me that there is no 'best' or 'better' martial arts style or system. There are only 'better than us' students of the martial arts than ourselves.

I largely agree with this, but not all the way (more on this at the bottom).

Traditional CMA strives to educate that we do not fight others but ourselves as our greatest enemy. This is part of the CMA Philosophy that is rapidly fading away as more young asians become more 'westernised' in their way of thinking. I grew up in the UK and only when I lived/worked in South East Asia was I exposed to this stark differences in my western upbringing and ancestral culture (i'm of chinese descent).

If someone wants to be in the martial arts for some sort of ancient cultural immersion, then so be it. I don't see any reason to argue with them about their choice. I'm in no place to judge - after all, I am not in martial arts to learn self defense or philosophy. I am in martial arts because I love competition and think it's a great form of it. To each his own.

But the question raised in this forum (to my understanding, at least) is whether or not the fighting method is effective. That's a separate question from the one you are raising.

From the sounds of it, you had a brush with the wrong crowd, Thai Bri. Hopefully this experience with Wing Chun doesn't put you off from keeping an open mind and willing spirit to learn from other instructors of Wing Chun (or any other style).

This is certainly one possiblity that Thai Bri should consider.

Linking back to the given example of tennis, there is no 'better' or 'best' style. Only better students of that style than us. From my own passion with martial arts study, its always good to have a well-rounded exposure to the different styles to learn and develop contermeasures (e.g. boxing versus ground fighting, etc).

This is where I disagree. Going off your tennis analogy. It is generally agreed that there are particular techniques in playing tennis that maximize your effectiveness. There's a specific way to serve, a specific way to forehand and backhand, etc. Mastering the technique and perfecting your training will make you a better tennis player. This is true in all physical activities. Why do we assume it's somehow different in fighting? Why would we ever assume that all techniques and all training methods are the same - the only difference being the quality of student? If your ability is based solely on your own physical and mental attributes, what would be the point of learning "self-defense"?

PS: the more visible Muscular attributes of displayed strength and agility, are only physcial aspects of CMA. The other half of the equation is the 'Chi' control which is manifest as 'Jing' (using the chinese language this sort of translates into the word 'energy' or using physics its like work-force). Regardless of whether its a 'hard' or 'soft' style (e.g. Shaolin Lo Han Quan versus Tai Chi Quan) all CMA strive to reach a balance of both Muscular and Chi control of the body. It took me a while (re)learning the chinese language to gain an appreciation of chinese Philosophy, and the latter is definately ingrained into traditional CMA.

OK.

[Tant01]

Wow... a virtual voice of reason! Good to read you! Welcome aboard.

[Blusta]

CMA and an explaination by an asian

Hi Thai Bri (and everyone else reading this),

If you had visting friends from the USA, and had beaten them at every friendly tennis match at your local club.... Would it be true then to claim every USA tennis player is crap? Or that tennis is a game for folks with lacking hand-eye coordination?

The past (humble and effective) Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) teachers I've encountered have always stressed to me that there is no 'best' or 'better' martial arts style or system. There are only 'better than us' students of the martial arts than ourselves.

Traditional CMA strives to educate that we do not fight others but ourselves as our greatest enemy. This is part of the CMA Philosophy that is rapidly fading away as more young asians become more 'westernised' in their way of thinking. I grew up in the UK and only when I lived/worked in South East Asia was I exposed to this stark differences in my western upbringing and ancestral culture (i'm of chinese descent).

Traditional CMA is stemmed with chinese Philosophy, similar to how Bushido is identified with traditional Japanese Martial Arts e.g. Kendo, Karate. Unfortunately many commercialised institutes or schools of the martial arts, stress more on winning and a kick-arse attitude to draw in more crowds with their 'winsome' reputation. Can't blame them really, more students usually equals to a rise in school/dojo income$.

Just as there are cowboys in the Restaurant/Food industry, there are flops in the martial arts business. These folks either water down the basics of a system to make it easier for newbies who want instant kick-arse capabilities (like instant noodles or instant coffee), or else they hide behind a rigid shell and dish out 'you are not yet ready youngling' proclamations to disguise their own shortcomings in skill and/or knowledge.

From the sounds of it, you had a brush with the wrong crowd, Thai Bri. Hopefully this experience with Wing Chun doesn't put you off from keeping an open mind and willing spirit to learn from other instructors of Wing Chun (or any other style).

Linking back to the given example of tennis, there is no 'better' or 'best' style. Only better students of that style than us. From my own passion with martial arts study, its always good to have a well-rounded exposure to the different styles to learn and develop contermeasures (e.g. boxing versus ground fighting, etc).

Bruce Lee quote: 'keep what is useful and discard what is not'.

Hope you keep it strong and positive!


Note:
i use the word 'Traditional' in this posted message, to describe the chinese cultural methodology of teaching CMA. To me 'non-traditional' implies an intentional removal of certain processes that had been previously adopted and passed down generations (from master to student) of CMA practioners; this in my view was done to accomodate non-chinese speaking students, as well as those paying students who need to see the physical results (i.e. need to love the bells and whistles!) without true understanding on how the system flows together (i.e. i don't need to know how it works!).

PS: the more visible Muscular attributes of displayed strength and agility, are only physcial aspects of CMA. The other half of the equation is the 'Chi' control which is manifest as 'Jing' (using the chinese language this sort of translates into the word 'energy' or using physics its like work-force). Regardless of whether its a 'hard' or 'soft' style (e.g. Shaolin Lo Han Quan versus Tai Chi Quan) all CMA strive to reach a balance of both Muscular and Chi control of the body. It took me a while (re)learning the chinese language to gain an appreciation of chinese Philosophy, and the latter is definately ingrained into traditional CMA.

[jubaji]

Well if your main criteria of how good a style is is how quickly it turns you into a good fighter, Wing Chun is not the best. For example a guy with 1 year of Krav Maga would do better in a street fight than a guy with 1 year of WC. However a guy with 5 years of WC would wipe the floor with the guy with 5 years of KM.

And a guy with 30 years of WC? Well he can defeat 10 black belts

You are apparently a grandmaster of LARPing.

[Garth]

Well if your main criteria of how good a style is is how quickly it turns you into a good fighter, Wing Chun is not the best. For example a guy with 1 year of Krav Maga would do better in a street fight than a guy with 1 year of WC. However a guy with 5 years of WC would wipe the floor with the guy with 5 years of KM.

And a guy with 30 years of WC? Well he can defeat 10 black belts, here is proof (LOL!): YouTube - Ip Man (2008)- Ip Man vs 10 Black Belts

[futsaowingchun]

A year of dedicated training is enough to judge. Especially since I have sommuch experience in both real fighting and other arts.

If I was saying how brillian the art was, you would not be criticisng the length of time I trained. You'd be falling over yourself to agree.

I agree 1 year is long enough to have a good Idea on how effective the art can be. With in one year wing chun can be very effective if trained right or taught correctly.

[Garth]

I've been doing WC for a few months and I disagree with some of your points.

I would suggest that many of your complaints about WC should be attributed to your school/instructor, rather than WC itself. For example:

Most of the training is done against thin air. I do think that this is useful if you are learning a technique for the first time, or "shadow boxing" (but doing it properly, as a spontaneous mental training aid). But to spend the majority of your time hitting thin air? Rubbish. All you do is get better at hitting air, and it does NOT translate into hitting people.

This is a lot different from my school, where the vast majority of the training is done in two person drills. It's not Wing Chun's fault your school didn't.

Trapping

Linked with Chi Sao, it is where you can momentarly immobilise an opponents limb to create a gap for your own attack. It is much too complex for real fighting and I have never seen it used in a real fight.

There s a case, for example, for grab and remove the opponents lead hand, then fire a puch into the face etc. But this simple move does not need hours of fancy looking training. More wasted time.

I've always found Wing Chun trapping to be very simple and straightforward. In what way is it too fancy?

And they stick their chins out. Its like a Boxers birthday party.

I've never seen that before. Our sifu always says chin should be tucked.

Grappling.

None, zero, zilch. Real fights can go to the floor. WC has no answer for what to do then. Sure they have now developed this "Anti Grappling". But it isn't good. We only have two legs and, as such, are relatively easy to knock over. This lack of grappling is a massive flaw in a supposed overall fighting style.

I agree with you there. Anyone learning Wing Chun needs to complement his training with some wrestling. The fact is Wing Chun is not a "complete" fighting system and anyone who claims so is delusional.

Issues like awareness, avoidance, posturing, threat assessment etc etc etc. were not addressed one iota. These isues were totally unknown to the so called instructors. They were training people how to mess around in a training hall. They were not training them how to survive in the big bad world.

My instructor talks about this quite often. Again I would suggest you just had a bad instructor, or one who taught WC as an "art" rather than a realistic self defence tool.

There are three main forms (or Katas for our Japanese stylists) in WC. I trained the first one only. Often the movements were both repetitive and slow. Practice was meant to somehow enhance your understanding and feel for a technique and this would lead to you becoming more effective. They were also mean't to keep some kind of record of te WC syllabus.

It didn't and it doesn't make you more effective.

Is it possible you weren't doing it correctly? It's not enough to just go through the motions. You have to really concentrate, and it should teach you all the basic principles of Wing Chun, like the centerline theory, proper way to execute all the moves, etc.

You also mentioned you only trained the first form. It's not until the second form that you begin to learn some more advanced techniques, especially movements.

The basic punch held the fist vertical and relied on alot of speed in delivery for power. There was only limited body projection behind it. As such it was quite weak. I saw heard a well known WC practitioner write that "a highly trained WC punch can be as hard as the average man's wild swing". Hardly something to brag about.

How powerful does a punch really need to be in a real fight? I doubt many people would still be standing after a few Wing Chun straight punches to the head.

Chi Sao (or "sticky hands")

This is where they learn to react to their opponents energy through touch. The limbs are rolled, and then strikes made. The opponent tries to redirect these strikes and then counter etc.

It s all too civilised. Each person is politely keeping the correct distance, and torso's stay erect. I contrast it with Senshido's idea of tactile sensitivity. Here both combatants are performing standing grappling. training is hard, unscripted and spontaneous. It is also a position much more akin to a real fight. He can sense his opponents energy through his body movement too, but it is a world away from the arm fencing of WC Chi Sao. Wasted time.

But if it teaches you to react faster to an opponent, is it really wasted time?

Kicks

They never kicked higher than the groin, which is good. But they were rarely practiced, and never against a striking aid. As such, they were not trained to the level required for appplcation. I won't even mentione "sticky legs". It is too ridiculous.

That is another thing I would not blame on the style itself, your instructor should have taught it more often. And I've never been taught sticky legs yet so I can't comment on it.

[Thai Bri]

Popped in for the first time in ages to see what is going on here. And this old thread of mine is still current!

[martial09k]

very interesting

[martial09k]

I 've read this thread about wing chun, i found it interesting and I'd like to share it here's the link http://www.pragmaticmartialarts.com/...hp?topic=266.0

[Red Rum]

Finally someone to say the truth

Always a pleasure. Even in Kamon, we have to admit that we need to explore other arenas, hence why we delve into boxing and BJJ, especially at higher levels

The worst thing for a chunner is to assume that they will always be able to pull of their wing chun

[peppi]

Politics and insistence that wing chun is the best always makes it an open target, and rightly so. When wing chun federations open up and admit that they aren't the deadliest thing around, they will start to gain respect

Finally someone to say the truth

[Red Rum]

In all fairness, Thai Bri has been very open and honest about who he trained with, how long it was, etc. Its not like he has come on here and made a general statement that wing chun is rubbish without any reasoning

Simply, some people don't like or aren't suited for wing chun

I'm not really designed for BJJ (too fat). I still enjoy it, but I know that I will never do brilliantly at it

I trained with a karate school for two months which was terrible. I went to another one and it was awesome. Been doing it ever since

People often get frustrated by wing chun techniques because you feel like you don't put anything into the punches. But that's not what its about. It trains you to use structure rather than big muscles and again, people don't like it for that reason

There isn't a problem with that. Some people like certain ways of training

A lot of chunners have a certain arrogance whereby they insist that they will never need groundwork or long range fighting movements (hard side kicks etc), until its too late. Wing chun is not a complete system, no matter what people say. Its a very progressive system and I am sure that in another hundred years we will see elements of BJJ as part of the wing chun style

Indeed, Kamon encourages the use of clinchwork and Sifu often holds BJJ seminars to open people's eyes to the need for groundwork
I also see that James Sinclair is hosting a groundwork seminar with Rick Young as his guest instructor

Politics and insistence that wing chun is the best always makes it an open target, and rightly so. When wing chun federations open up and admit that they aren't the deadliest thing around, they will start to gain respect

[WCBy]

A little misunderstanding of WC

As much as I hate to revive old threads, I saw this one and just had to say something.

It appears that the original poster's training and understanding of WC is so fundamentally wrong that the conclusion is based on false premises. I dare say that this sounds like it is through no fault of his own but rather that of equally poorly informed instructors. Unfortunately, too many of these abound in the CMA world.

I'd love to clarify most if not all of the points raised but I'm not a big fan of posting on boards and conducting discussions through a forum that is typically ruled by keyboard warriors. That said, if anyone (including OP) is interested in knowing WC fundamentals and theories that make sense, feel free to drop me a PM. Most things must be shown in person so I'd be happy to arrange a training session with anyone interested (I'm in Central London).

I'm definitely no expert but I was fortunate to have a really good Sifu who held nothing back. Due to my new move to London, however, I am unable to train and have no desire to train at any of the schools I've seen here. That said, I'd be happy to train with anyone within proximity and eager to learn WC together (I'm planning on setting up a remote system with my Sifu back at home).

Otherwise, glad to be part of the board and it's unfortunate to see so much uninformed bashing of WC as it truly is a great martial art.

Cheers

[Red Rum]

Very true Garland. Although I think the reference was in competition and set scenarios (boxing ring etc).

Generally, adults will be sharper and stronger because their muscles are developed. Obviously there are exceptions. I have seen 14 year olds who are taller than me (which is damn scary!), but if I heard that there as a competition and a 14 year old was up against an adult, my money would generally be on the adult