'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[Thai Bri]

TJ, you're needed here urgently mate. Your right hand man here is doing something that right hands are made for...... making himself look like a right eedjut! Haw haw haw!

Hey! Don't restrict yourself to that seminar! Find any film anywhere across the entire world wide web! They have cameras on rooftops as well you know!

Haw haw haw!

[Troll Virus]

I edited my post whilst you were making yours. Have another go at answering.

See if you can do it without meaningless cheap shots and one liners that don't actually add up.

Just responding in your chosen style.

Here's a hint re application. When my grappling showed me a technique, he did just that. He showed me. Whe we rolled around? Or when I saw him roll with someone else? Then he "applied" it. Get the difference? No Kato required.

Of course I do you patronising twat.

It isn't difficult, unless you're into an art that does very little in the way of pressure testing. Like Wing Chun.

No particular arguement here.

Is that what he did in the Edinburgh seminar? Is it filmed? Is anything similar to this filmed?

Let's see you produce it for us all. Guess what folks? He won't.

Of course I won't.
I was too busy training at the time to go and buy a video camera and rush back to catch the footage just on the vague offchance some oaf would want to see it for themselves.
There may well be footage of it, as there were other people there with cameras.
I can't say

Of course the world is made up of more than black and white. I never said that it wasn't. I said that you are the equivalent of someone who says that black IS white, and vice versa. But you try to bat the point away with the use of non sensical one liners.

Oh really?

[Thai Bri]

I edited my post whilst you were making yours. Have another go at answering.

See if you can do it without meaningless cheap shots and one liners that don't actually add up.

Wing Chun people say that all the time. We've already covered how you lot chicken out by mysteriously claiming that the sporting context is not a real fight. Its the closest we can do in a civillised world, and the overlap is easily close enough to get a meaningful assessment. It is certainly more meaningful all the anecdotal crap you come up with.

Here's a hint re application. When my grappling showed me a technique, he did just that. He showed me. Whe we rolled around? Or when I saw him roll with someone else? Then he "applied" it. Get the difference? No Kato required.

It isn't difficult, unless you're into an art that does very little in the way of pressure testing. Like Wing Chun. Is that what he did in the Edinburgh seminar? Did he get the bicep bulging guy to come at him with anything he wanted? Or did your Master merely do another demo, with the bicep guy actually wanting it to work, like most people do when they attend a seminar......

Is it filmed? Is anything similar to this filmed? Can you find a genuine film of anyone in Wing Chun beating someone who is both outside of that style AND non compliant?

Let's see you produce it for us all. Guess what folks? He won't.

Of course the world is made up of more than black and white. I never said that it wasn't. I said that you are the equivalent of someone who says that black IS white, and vice versa. But you try to bat the point away with the use of non sensical one liners.

You're always hiding between the lines, taking things just outside of their actual meaning.... you pretend that I have made a slightly different point, and then argue with that. I never said the world is only black and white.

You are lying to yourself. It is common in Martial Arts, and very common in the non pressure tested arts that involve too much compliant training.

[Troll Virus]

It really isn't that hard to convince me, if the evidence is there. Anyone into youtube can show you examples of boxing, Thai, BJJ, Judo etc. etc. proving its worth against fully resisting opponents.

I guess it boils down to what convinces you.
For you it's obviously victory in a limited sporting format, thus we boil down into all the crappy circular arguements.

Yet you? No..... but you're on the periphery of good arts.... trying to steal a bit here and there......but still calling it Wing Chun.

When did I say that?

Or write about mysterious fights that never seem to be on film.......

When did I do that?

[Thai Bri]

How about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUfel14H_E&mode=related&search=

[Troll Virus]

[QUOTE=Thai Bri;236730]"He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks."
You see, you're mis-quoting me.
I wrote;
"He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks.
I have enough of an eye to know what I'm looking at.
Notably at a seminar in Edinburgh, Sam took on an attack from a bouncer with 26" biceps and made him look like a child.

You know the difference? Explain them how he showed you how he could "apply" them then rather than merely "doing" them.

Can you offer a better way of applying them than doing them?
That's not what you mean though is it.
You mean he should have closets full of Kato lookalikes jumping out and throwing non WC attacks at random dont you?

Now the "Kung Fu" bit. Yes, I am also aware that the phrase is used to describe more or less ANYTHING that has been done well. But that was not the point being made. Clearly. It has not been said that "since this went well it was Kung Fu." The claim is "this went well as it followed the principles of Wing Chun."

You misunderstand me.
I merely offered on explanation as to why there is a tendency, especially within CMA to look at everything relative to a core art .

That is very different, and the argument weak. We can all claim that handstand whilst knitting with your fett is good Wing Chun then could we?

Yeah, maybe it'd be good for Chi Gerk.

If you're determined to claim that it is good, then all power to you.

What I'm determined to claim, is that it is what you make of it, and not what it makes of you.

But this tendency to keep redefining the terms is suspect. It's a bit like saying something like "Black is really white" and then, when pushed, start saying "Yes, but a very very dark white is like a grey, and ghrey is a very very light form of black."

Sorry, but it's a complex world out there.
If it was all black and white, there'd be no discussion worth having.

[Thai Bri]

"He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks."

You know the difference? Explain them how he showed you how he could "apply" them then rather than merely "doing" them.

Now the "Kung Fu" bit. Yes, I am also aware that the phrase is used to describe more or less ANYTHING that has been done well. But that was not the point being made. Clearly. It has not been said that "since this went well it was Kung Fu." The claim is "this went well as it followed the principles of Wing Chun."

That is very different, and the argument weak. We can all claim that handstand whilst knitting with your feet is good Wing Chun then could we? Because someone may be able to do it very well, therefore "good Kung Fu" therefore good Wing Chun." It follows from your arguments. But it is nonsense.

If you're determined to claim that it is good, then all power to you. But this tendency to keep redefining the terms is suspect. It's a bit like saying something like "Black is really white" and then, when pushed, start saying "Yes, but a very very dark white is like a grey, and grey is a very very light form of black."

Sounds good, if you're into self delusion.

It really isn't that hard to convince me, if the evidence is there. Anyone into youtube can show you examples of boxing, Thai, BJJ, Judo etc. etc. proving its worth against fully resisting opponents.

Yet you? No..... but you're on the periphery of good arts.... trying to steal a bit here and there......but still calling it Wing Chun. Or write about mysterious fights that never seem to be on film....... The ones that are there always showing Wing Chun in a less than favourable light. I've recently had a similar discussion with a guy on another forum. He has done his best to find a clip of WC being effectively used against a resisting opponent. This was the best he came up with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vUCCtb9uOs

He really thought that the guy padded up was doing his best to attack the Wing Chun master. I saw a guy sticking his arm out and then freezing. What do you see? Can you find anything better?

If you do I'll tell him, because he's feeling a little despondent at the moment!

[Troll Virus]

TV - He didn't who you how to "apply" anything. He showed you how to "do" it. There is a difference. We can all do it when you say "attack me with this". You're ready for it AND the other guy doesn't really want to fill you in! No, I don't expect him to demo in any other way on a student. But don't get too carried away.

That's what I asked him to do.
I taught for over ten years prior to this.
I know the distinction thanks.

I do, indeed, believe in cross training. It is in every martial artists interest to do it. It's this tendency to claim that whatever works is still Wing Chun that gets my goat. As evidenced by TJ.

It's no great secret you are specifically down on WC.
You're coming at it from a non CMA viewpoint.
Wing Chun is Kung Fu.
Kung Fu is hard to specifically translate, but means work done, hard work, work in progress, effort, commitment etc.
That kind of thing.
So when someone going from a CMA system goes into another, they still view it as part of their work.
Kung Fu is not a style!

Where I may differ from both yourself and Tj.
I don't believe in styles or systems as being magical coats of armour you can spray on any individual with a guarantee of success.

[Thai Bri]

I'll get back to a more thorough reply when I can. In short it will be along the lines of

TJ - it seems that anything that "works" falls under your definition of WC. That is contradictory. How can we train in these wonderful forms etc. yet, on the other hand.... if it works we still claim it as Wing Chun! Nah. Not fair.

TV - He didn't who you how to "apply" anything. He showed you how to "do" it. There is a difference. We can all do it when you say "attack me with this". You're ready for it AND the other guy doesn't really want to fill you in! No, I don't expect him to demo in any other way on a student. But don't get too carried away.

Richard Dimitri has a cool way of demonstrating his stuff though. He gets any voiolunteer up and says "Attack me as hard as you can in any way that you want." Then he deals with them. He has yet to lose and, to my knowledge, hasn't given anyone a bad injury. Let's see WC replicate that.

No offence intended to Sam Kwok. He never gave me any grief. I noted with some disappointment that, at my 2nd grading, bot Kev and Dave were a little "short" with him. I don't know why, but it was openly doen in front of us all.

I do, indeed, believe in cross training. It is in every martial artists interest to do it. It's this tendency to claim that whatever works is still Wing Chun that gets my goat. As evidenced by TJ.

[Troll Virus]

I'm going to sling in three seperate events that happened while I trained with Kwok Sifu.

One in an early class.
I was playing hands with a senior student who quickly realised I knew more than I should for my time spent there.
He asked if I was training with someone else, but when I explained that I had done various MA he came out with this beauty.
"It is a wise man who serves but one Master"

I've come across this attitude in both JMA and CMA before.
That trust should be placed only upon one system.
In all my time with Kwok, that was never said or implied.
If anything, more interest was shown because I was deemed 'quirky'.

After class one evening, another student was bragging that he was entering an open tournament 'light continuous kickboxing'.
Eyes agleam, he told me how he would destroy his opponents with Wing Chun.
I started to try and explain to him what to expect, but I don't think he was listening.
Never heard the outcome, but I bet it wasn't pretty.

Another memorable evening, was one winter night, when hardly anybody turned up.
It was pretty much just me and Sam.
He asked me if there was anything I wanted to know about WC.
I asked him to show me how he would deal with a Thai low kick.
I asked him to show me how he would deal with a shoot/takedown.
I asked him to show me how he would deal with a high kick.
He certainly showed me how he could apply WC to those attacks.




In summary.
I've seen both ends of the WC spectrum.
Those deluding themselves, and those who can function utilising the system.
You'll find the majority of those top people cross train.
Now you could argue that the desire to cross train would indicate a lack in the system.
I'd be more inclined to say that it's the norm for anyone finding themselves at a plateaux in training to look for other avenues of exploration.

Myself, I'm interested in anything with a little depth.
I'd rather read a good novel than a comic.
Fights are easy to find.

[tjwingchun]

TJ - I know that the longer someone trains, the better they get. My issue is with it taking 4 years just to get going! I know someone with 4 years BJJ may well get the better of somoene with just 1 year. But my point is this - someone with 1 year's MMA, Thai. Boxing, Judo, BJJ etc. WILL get the better of someone with 4 years in Wing Chun.

If YOU get to pick the 'someones' Iwould agree, but not if I get to make the choice! We have covered that well worn area of dependancy on the individual, though I will agree with the generalisation because the majority of Wing Chun schools have little understanding of real application, whereas the arts you mention deal with the end point from the start, Thai, boxing and Judo have competitions that make a student aware that they need to be looking to attack as soon as possible, MMA and BJJ, mainly through locks and chokes, have a game plan that allows them to achieve an end point without having to strike the head or damage the body.

Wing Chun is restricted by how direct and simple it is in its attacks, for as beginner to be involved in sparring too early would be asking for injury, when I was 14 years old in my first lesson I got a kick in the balls, carried on for the rest of the sparring bout then crumpled at the side, why did I go back,

I try to instil that 'killer' instinct in students, the "don't stop until they are no longer a threat" attitude, understanding that if you are stationary you are hit and if you wait for a technique to be thrown to counter it, you will be hit. Also through wallbag training I get students to hit through a contact to offload all the energy of a strike.

I look forwards to learning more about the WC organisation that is geared to NHB competition. We will all see just how much WC they end up using, compared to Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ and, well, Mixed Martial Arts in general. Their "Core" style may well be WC. Or they may well say that, with so much of WC being brushed aside that it becomes a meaningless claim - a bit like Kimo in UFC3 when he claimed to fight under the banner of TKD, yet did nothing but steroid assisted Wrestling.

Like you say, real fighting is a % game. That's why the guys in it choose high percentage techniques. I have yet to see any WC technique in there, beyond it bearing a passing similarity to something from another system. You say "with the growth of NHB." NHB in its current form has been around for 15 years! What is taking WC so long?

We look at what Wing Chun is in different ways, my version is that it is how we use our bodies in violent conflict situations, you seem to view it as form and nothing else, I have always told my students that you cannot apply the techniques directly from the forms. Forms are sets of abstract, exaggerated movements that allow understanding of muscle groups through isolation.

Application is led by specific situations that can vary greatly with slight changes in circumstance, I have taught the uppercut from Biu Gee now for over 20 years, Alex in his first fight stepped in with an uppercut to the ribs which finished his opponent mentally, then after a couple of minutes kneeing him the fight was over,

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/alex%20prideandglory.mov

Was that the uppercut I taught him, was it from boxing, was it from BJJ where he gained a Blue Belt, I don't care, it was a fighting technique and therefore a Wing Chun technique. I don't scour around looking for similarities in UFC fights to justify the Wing Chun that I teach, I simply look at the different ways you can use your body to generate useful energy in real fighting scenarios.

Full contact competitions have been around for some time prior to NHB and there have been successes in that field who are Wing Chun, but then again. was it the individual or was it their other influences that made them, I cannot say.

Why has it taken so long for Wing Chun to make its presence felt in the NHB arena, back to the 'right material' argument, people who want to fight NHB competitively finding an instructor wanting to teach NHB competition fighting. I worked with Alex on his NHB skills prior to his joining Alan's organisation and he trained with me on and off for over 10 years, but he and Ben are the only ones that have recently trained that have shown the NHB interest. I am available to advise anyone in their personal quests, whether competitive or otherwise.

I honestly believe that I can help develop extra power in striking, no matter what the style, purely via Wing Chun methods, is my knowledge dismissable simple because I am under the Wing Chun banner, well that is your choice, but I have confidence in MY Wing Chun and I have students who also have confidence, from beginners to one that started with me back in '83, is he just a starry eyed follower, not quite, he has drifted in and out of training over the years as life takes us in many directions, but he also has a full time occupation where his Wing Chun has come in useful many times, he is a prison officer, hence his need for reality.

You ask me if fighters incorporate other styles? The best ones certainly do. And it is certainly a good thing if WC did. But the point is this - if WC is such a great art, why the need? Why keep claiming it to be WC? When Kick Boxer Bas Rutten incorporated grappling and hit the NHB scene, he didn't claim that he was using Kickboxing.....

Gary Lam and WSL may well compete and train in Thai Boxing. I certainly would not blame them if they did. Dave Carnell also felt the need to go outside the WC style. But why TJ? Why are these people looking outside uf such an intricate and wonderful art? Could it be that it is not as wonderful as all that?

If you want me to put thoughts into Dave's head, I will say that at the time he left Sifu I was suprised as he and Kevin were paying the likes of William Cheung when they had been getting their training with Sifu for FREE!! At the time I thought it was more about them not asking their own questions, their reason for stopping was apparently that they were not learning anything 'new'. So they went on a journey to find 'new' things.

Through my wonderfully tinted Wing Chun glasses it is all that wonderful, what I have done over the years is to look at its simplicity, investigate the mechanics, principle and theories, to find the 'new' things for myself, what should I take from Thai, low kicks with the shin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TMcRUWtVV0#GU5U2spHI_4

I don't think so

What from BJJ? Grappling, chokes and wrist locks, they are part of my repertoire already! Groundwork? Was attacked by a Ju Jitsu guy who took me to the floor and tried to get a choke on, I did have my hands in my pockets at the time, when I got back to my feet his mates jumped in between us, it was a stand off and he walked away, another occasion I dived in to stop a local gangster type from biting a friends nose off, there was a second biting his back, but it was the third one I was unaware of doing Michael Flattely impressions on my head that knocked me out, so I am a bit reticent about going to the floor.

You said

"I know there are a few local lads I could take out of the pub, train for a short period of time and put them under the Wing Chun banner, who would be very effective in NHB competitions, they fight for fun most weekends, but what would that prove apart from if you have the right material you can fine tune a fighter into a better fighter."

The wors "the right material" spring to mind. The right material could train these guys into effective fighters in months. But there wouldn't be a great deal of WC in there.

Covered the 'right material' earlier and as far as a 'great deal of WC in there' what more do you need is the punch works?

Another quote

"I have taught lads like that over the years but also people who are training for more personal reasons, some self defence, some exercise and others simply recreational who are not interested in full contact sparring being the be all and end all of their interest, horses for courses, it is the individual that dictates their training, the instructor is merely a helpful guide."

Now we go down another well trodden path. When we scrutinise an art for it's fighting effectiveness, if it begins not to measure up? Why, no problem.... beause people train it for "other reasons." Why not throw in the old chestnuts of "to be an artis" or "for self development."

People walk into a martial arts class to learn how to fight, whether that be in a sport or self protection scenario. Only the ones who invest a few years, slowly realise they are not fighters, come up with these other reasons..... unless they leave or find somewhere better.

Or is it the older chestnut that "if you don't do it my way its not real", I teach anybody who wishes to improve themselves via the vehicle that is TJ Wing Chun, the only traffic away from my teaching methods has been Alex and Ben which I fully support as their personal way is along the NHB route and Alan has the set-up and numbers of like minded souls to help them progress their own way, over the years it has always been people from other styles training with me, even lads in Sifu's association who moved to the NE for a couple of years to train with me.

There is a lad training now with me for the last 4 years who had 12 years of hardline Ju Jitsu from Carlisle, used to be fighting most weekends and a very aggressive personality, now he has calmed down and is understanding himself, by knowing the violence he is capable and how I find it relatively easy to control him, he is looking at Wing Chun from his own perspective.

Then again over the years I have taught people who would jump if you said "BOO", even after 3-4 years training they would find it difficult to survive a street attack, but my viewpoint is that their training gave them a better % chance of surviving than if they had done nothing at all.

I understand that WC is full of pricks who make ridiculous claims (like Tameo's 14 yr old Olymp[pic Boxer killing WC guy) and I don't hold you responsible for that. But the pricks seem to outnumber the good guys massively. Why is that?

Mostly money, there is a lot of money to be made out of Wing Chun, and in the old days anybody could say anything and who knew any better, which is why I am a great believer in people investigating the claims of the self-proclaimed Grandmasters of Wing Chun, as their articles were put into print and therefore easily retrieved and brought back to light to bite their asses.

As an aside, what's your take on the William Cheung vs Emin Boztepe girlfight they had back in the day? You were around at the time to read about it, hot off the press.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk&search=cheung%20boztepe

Nothing more than a playground slapfest, I can understand William Cheung being caught off guard in the middle of a seminar in a foreign land, but after he made the comments in Combat magazine about being a Martini fighter "anyone, anytime, any place" he should have expected it, he had the chance to take Boztepe's eyes yet held onto his collar, and the elbow strikes by Boztepe should have taken him out but didn't. At the end of the day it just showed the pettiness of Wing Chun at the time, "has it changed?" I hear you cry, well I think it is and it is up to those who believe in it to put the case forward for the system not the sifu's.

[Thai Bri]

Here's more of the Alan Orr guy -

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/products/nhbwingcgundvd.html

Read carefully, words top the effect of "this is not like any WC you have ever seen!"

Do you want to hazard a guess why? Because he is having to change it severely....... because the WC preserved for all these centuries doesn't cut the mustard.

[Thai Bri]

Troll Virus - your coments are not even worthy of consideration. Cheap and meaningless oneupmanship nonsense.

TJ - I know that the longer someone trains, the better they get. My issue is with it taking 4 years just to get going! I know someone with 4 years BJJ may well get the better of somoene with just 1 year. But my point is this - someone with 1 year's MMA, Thai. Boxing, Judo, BJJ etc. WILL get the better of someone with 4 years in Wing Chun.

I look forwards to learning more about the WC organisation that is geared to NHB competition. We will all see just how much WC they end up using, compared to Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ and, well, Mixed Martial Arts in general. Their "Core" style may well be WC. Or they may well say that, with so much of WC being brushed aside that it becomes a meaningless claim - a bit like Kimo in UFC3 when he claimed to fight under the banner of TKD, yet did nothing but steroid assisted Wrestling.

Like you say, real fighting is a % game. That's why the guys in it choose high percentage techniques. I have yet to see any WC technique in there, beyond it bearing a passing similarity to something from another system. You say "with the growth of NHB." NHB in its current form has been around for 15 years! What is taking WC so long?

You ask me if fighters incorporate other styles? The best ones certainly do. And it is certainly a good thing if WC did. But the point is this - if WC is such a great art, why the need? Why keep claiming it to be WC? When Kick Boxer Bas Rutten incorporated grappling and hit the NHB scene, he didn't claim that he was using Kickboxing.....

Gary Lam and WSL may well compete and train in Thai Boxing. I certainly would not blame them if they did. Dave Carnell also felt the need to go outside the WC style. But why TJ? Why are these people looking outside uf such an intricate and wonderful art? Could it be that it is not as wonderful as all that?

You said

"I know there are a few local lads I could take out of the pub, train for a short period of time and put them under the Wing Chun banner, who would be very effective in NHB competitions, they fight for fun most weekends, but what would that prove apart from if you have the right material you can fine tune a fighter into a better fighter."

The wors "the right material" spring to mind. The right material could train these guys into effective fighters in months. But there wouldn't be a great deal of WC in there.

Another quote

"I have taught lads like that over the years but also people who are training for more personal reasons, some self defence, some exercise and others simply recreational who are not interested in full contact sparring being the be all and end all of their interest, horses for courses, it is the individual that dictates their training, the instructor is merely a helpful guide."

Now we go down another well trodden path. When we scrutinise an art for it's fighting effectiveness, if it begins not to measure up? Why, no problem.... beause people train it for "other reasons." Why not throw in the old chestnuts of "to be an artis" or "for self development."

People walk into a martial arts class to learn how to fight, whether that be in a sport or self protection scenario. Only the ones who invest a few years, slowly realise they are not fighters, come up with these other reasons..... unless they leave or find somewhere better.

I understand that WC is full of pricks who make ridiculous claims (like Tameo's 14 yr old Olymp[pic Boxer killing WC guy) and I don't hold you responsible for that. But the pricks seem to outnumber the good guys massively. Why is that?

As an aside, what's your take on the William Cheung vs Emin Boztepe girlfight they had back in the day? You were around at the time to read about it, hot off the press.

[tjwingchun]

Could be.
I'd agree, but the issue, at least on this thread, is how efficiently that is acheived.

I talk a lot in seminars about 'LESSON 1' and that is the straightforward basic punch, and how in 90% of street situations, if you have developed your punch it will see you through, no matter how far down the path to Wing Chun you are 'LESSON 1' will always be relevant.

As soon as you know that the fight has started, punch them! What ensues after then relates more to the experience of the defender and the attacker.

I'd like to see ANY system offer guaranteed results against 'seasoned streetfighters or martial artists'

I agree, people with experience of real fighting have an advantage, which is why continued training and practice is vital for any art, the more you know the better you can adapt to unknown scenarios.

No No.
Some kids just wanna go Bam Bam!

I'm getting where you want to go with this, but more pedestrian cravings need to be satisfied first perhaps?


Whoah.
Where you been all your life?
4 years?

What we are talking about now is the balence that you learn through teaching, some want the quick fix, others are happy taking there time, its the Ying/Yang balence of opposites that keep coming up time and time again in Wing Chun.

Yes the whole system in four years, that gets you to the starting point of appreciating the full system, how all the forms are incorporated in everything you do, then the rest of the time is spent analysing the moves and interpreting theories, concepts and principles, while through Chi sau you investigate how you interact with an assailant in contact.

So are you saying the priority of WC is not to enable individuals to handle a fight within one year?

My view is that Wing Chun's priority is to prepare an individual as quickly as possible to protect themselves in conflict situations, that starts with the simplicity of 'LESSON 1' and grows to cover more threatening scenarios that require greater technical knowledge.

[tjwingchun]

This is one of my bugbears.

Kwai Chang Caine has alot to answer for. Football? You can learn in days, and you get better and better the more you practice. There is none of this mystical "learn the intricate ways of the limb movement, grass hopper" stuff in it.

Same as re many fighting arts too, especially the ones with a proven track record when fighting against totally non compliant opponents.

Go to any professional football team or boxing gym and ask the coaches how long their best performers have been training, most footballers start in kids clubs around 6-8 year old, they progress through quite strict transitions that help them develop slowly without risking their abilities or health, the same with young boxers who are not allowed to spar until they have reached fair physical maturity and then it is only supervised.

Ask the professional coaches how long it takes to reach the highest level in their field, to compete at the World level, ask a competitor who has reached world standing if they have anything more to learn.

But Wing Chun? Well this is super mystical, and you need four years before you begin to really understand its brilliance..... Sorry, but I call "hogwash!"

The idea that the longer an art takes to learn, the better it is, is illogical. The QUICKER it can be learned (and applied), the better it is.

I have never heard this, what is a repetitive theme in any professional sport is "the longer you do it the better you get".

What I said was it takes four years to get through the whole system, I have taught a dedicated student who trained with me four times a week and put in alot of home practice in, all the forms in about 18 months, yet it was still over two years before he started to use the knowledge of Chum Kiu, learning new ways for the limbs to move, developing and building subconscious 'learned responses' takes time, whatever the physical skill being practiced.

Going back to Football. Let's call it soccer, since we're on a predominantly American forum....... Let's imagine there were all different "styles" of football - just like there are many styles of fighting. To me, the "Wing Chun soccer" goes about things in an overly complex manner. It makes pseudo scientific claims that don't actually add up. It had it's players standing still, making slow movements with their arms and legs.... it rarely actually gets on a field and kicks a ball.......

No wonder it takes 4 years to get a feel for the game!

Yet Thai soccer? Or the very different, but equally effective BJJ soccer? These guys are on the field, running, kicking, scoring! And, in all the openly documented events, they beat the Wing Chun soccer guys every time.

Ask Thai or BJJ instructors who would have the better chance a student with four years training or one year.

Sorry to disappoint you but two of my students have recently joined a Wing Chun association that is geared to NHB competition as that is their desire and are having some success, www.alanorr.com but then again its not their Wing Chun it is the other aspects of BJJ and groundwork that make them effective, that is why they maintain Wing Chun as their core style.

With the growth of NHB competitions there will be more Wing Chun entries with proficient fighters, I don't envisage them wiping the board just being competitive. Real fighting is always a % game.

But hey.... no problem. There were all those rooftop soccer matches right? The secret ones..... the ones that can't be verified. And the Thai and BJJ soccer guys are "incorporating" WC soccer into their own game...... of course the are..... And a lot of WC soccer players have seen their teams beat Thai and BJJ soccer too. Oh yes!

But no one else has seen it....

Doesn't sound too convincing, does it?

The roof top fights were what made Wing Chun's name in the 50's and 60's in Hong Kong, what has maintained the growth of Wing Chun from one person, Yip Man, to a global presence, is how it is seen to be effective by thinking fighters, do fighters from other systems incorporate Wing Chun? I would think it is just as likely as Wing Chun incorporating other styles.

Gary Lam from Wong Shun Leung, has competed and teaches Thai boxing. www.garylamwingchun.com

Anybody who considers themselves a fighter must respect other styles and learn from interacting with them, I know there are many in the Wing Chun community that put themselves on a pedestal of being the ULTIMATE FIGHTERS, but they are representing THEM not Wing Chun.

I know there are a few local lads I could take out of the pub, train for a short period of time and put them under the Wing Chun banner, who would be very effective in NHB competitions, they fight for fun most weekends, but what would that prove apart from if you have the right material you can fine tune a fighter into a better fighter.

I have taught lads like that over the years but also people who are training for more personal reasons, some self defence, some exercise and others simply recreational who are not interested in full contact sparring being the be all and end all of their interest, horses for courses, it is the individual that dictates their training, the instructor is merely a helpful guide.