'Things I should have learned about WC in a year but didnt.'

[Troll Virus]

Over the years several of my students have put down their training for ways in which they have progressed as individuals, but I also understand your reticence in believing the style was the answer, it may have just been coincidence with their 'growing up' and natural psychological development, who can say?

Could be.

I think Wing Chun has the tools to allow an individual to develop basic self defence abilities,

I'd agree, but the issue, at least on this thread, is how efficiently that is acheived.

I have had several students who have used simple chain punching to put off attackers, from school yard scenario to drunken brawl on a Saturday night, but I would not say they are definitive to the effectiveness of Wing Chun just that a little bit of knowledge can go along way in the majority of street situations, but up against seasoned streetfighters or martial artists a beginner with less than 2-3 years tend not to have the knowledge of body mechanics to generate power from the floor and put full bodyweight behind a strike to make it decisive.

I'd like to see ANY system offer guaranteed results against 'seasoned streetfighters or martial artists'

My understanding of Siu Lim Tao, or my take on the "Little Idea" translation, goes along one of the lines I have heard came from Yip Man, in that it is to get rid of all the 'little' or 'small' ideas in your head and focus on the form.

No No.
Some kids just wanna go Bam Bam!

The preparation that Siu Lim Tao offers for the progression to Chum Kiu is invaluable. The discipline learned through investigating the simple movements of the arm, a relatively co-ordinated part of the body, translated to both arms independantly, the legs and whole body usage becomes a whole different ball game, but the awareness developed in Siu Lim Tao helps isolate all the movements into abstract, exaggerated techniques, not for application but for co-ordination and knowledge of SELF.

I'm getting where you want to go with this, but more pedestrian cravings need to be satisfied first perhaps?

As with most Martial Arts you only start to get your foot onthe learning ladder after about a minimum of 4 years, the time I think a good student with decent instructor should be through the whole system, then once they have taken a student of their own through the complete system can they really be considered as getting somewhere, lol.

Whoah.
Where you been all your life?
4 years?

After just one year I would expect a fair knowledge of simple application of SLT, basic leg work, starting Chum Kiu and the beginnings of Chi Sau skills. Again it depends on the individuals involved and the circumstances of their training to make any definite statements.

So are you saying the priority of WC is not to enable individuals to handle a fight within one year?

[Troll Virus]

Answers

Did anyone tell me?

Yes

Then your issue is with them?

It was the style of the times, and was so good they taught you great practical things straight away!

Your saggy arse it was the 'style of the times'.

So you, oh wise one depict a scene where you were mislead by some marketing blurb?
You then went on to devote a year of your time based on that?
C'mon.
Tell the truth.
You haven't answered the question though.
Where is anyone saying WC 'as a system' turns you into a fighter within a year?

Has anyone on the forum said it?

Yes

Check this post from the big "Overview" thread, by Tameo

"This one kid in my traditional WC school is fourteen years old and he trained for 1.5 years. He beat an Olympic champion boxer who is in his twenties... I witnessed it. He got hit 3 times he hit the boxer about 30 times. So WC can be very effective in a short period of time. Maybe Thai Bri had very bad instructors who couldn’t teach him anything useful in a year. At the place were I go the sifu knows what he is talking about and we spar very often and have full contact classes.

Easier if you just link the thread.
That way I can read all the crap you probably wrote too.

Are there systems that can turn someone into a fighter in one year?

Yes - absolutely. Take any highly motivated able bodied 15 year old lad into a boxing gym, or BBJ club, or MMA club, or Thai Boxing club, or Judo club...... The try to kick his arse in a years time . Don't try to use Wing Chun on him though, unless you have good medical insurance.

Aha.
Who is this " highly motivated able bodied 15 year old lad " of which you speak?
You're not suggesting an individual might be more important than the style or system are you?

Nice sig.
Mine's accurate though.

[Tom Yum]

Check this post from the big "Overview" thread, by Tameo

"This one kid in my traditional WC school is fourteen years old and he trained for 1.5 years. He beat an Olympic champion boxer who is in his twenties... I witnessed it. He got hit 3 times he hit the boxer about 30 times. So WC can be very effective in a short period of time. Maybe Thai Bri had very bad instructors who couldn’t teach him anything useful in a year. At the place were I go the sifu knows what he is talking about and we spar very often and have full contact classes.
__________________

If you bring up Tameo, you've got to bring up Sherwinc too...

Looking forward to the Tameo vs. Sherwinc match up.

[Thai Bri]

ps - what do I get for three "yes" answers? An apology?

[Thai Bri]

Answers

Did anyone tell me?

Yes

It was the style of the times, and was so good they taught you great practical things straight away!

Has anyone on the forum said it?

Yes

Check this post from the big "Overview" thread, by Tameo

"This one kid in my traditional WC school is fourteen years old and he trained for 1.5 years. He beat an Olympic champion boxer who is in his twenties... I witnessed it. He got hit 3 times he hit the boxer about 30 times. So WC can be very effective in a short period of time. Maybe Thai Bri had very bad instructors who couldn’t teach him anything useful in a year. At the place were I go the sifu knows what he is talking about and we spar very often and have full contact classes.
__________________

OK, that was 1.5 years. But since this kid is leathering an Olympic boxer with 1.5 years, it is reasonable to assume he was a "fighter" within a year. No doubt there are others. Now this Tameo guy was a prize prick..... like a lot of WC guys in that thread. Read it and weep.

Are there systems that can turn someone into a fighter in one year?

Yes - absolutely. Take any highly motivated able bodied 15 year old lad into a boxing gym, or BBJ club, or MMA club, or Thai Boxing club, or Judo club...... The try to kick his arse in a years time . Don't try to use Wing Chun on him though, unless you have good medical insurance.

[Troll Virus]

It's a matter of perspective.

First of all, did anyone tell you WC would make you a fighter (whatever that is) within one year TB?

Has anyone on forum said it?

Do you think there are any systems or styles that can turn anybody into a fighter within a year?

[Thai Bri]

This is one of my bugbears.

Kwai Chang Caine has alot to answer for. Football? You can learn in days, and you get better and better the more you practice. There is none of this mystical "learn the intricate ways of the limb movement, grass hopper" stuff in it.

Same as re many fighting arts too, especially the ones with a proven track record when fighting against totally non compliant opponents.

But Wing Chun? Well this is super mystical, and you need four years before you begin to really understand its brilliance..... Sorry, but I call "hogwash!"

The idea that the longer an art takes to learn, the better it is, is illogical. The QUICKER it can be learned (and applied), the better it is.

Going back to Football. Let's call it soccer, since we're on a predominantly American forum....... Let's imagine there were all different "styles" of football - just like there are many styles of fighting. To me, the "Wing Chun soccer" goes about things in an overly complex manner. It makes pseudo scientific claims that don't actually add up. It had it's players standing still, making slow movements with their arms and legs.... it rarely actually gets on a field and kicks a ball.......

No wonder it takes 4 years to get a feel for the game!

Yet Thai soccer? Or the very different, but equally effective BJJ soccer? These guys are on the field, running, kicking, scoring! And, in all the openly documented events, they beat the Wing Chun soccer guys every time.

But hey.... no problem. There were all those rooftop soccer matches right? The secret ones..... the ones that can't be verified. And the Thai and BJJ soccer guys are "incorporating" WC soccer into their own game...... of course the are..... And a lot of WC soccer players have seen their teams beat Thai and BJJ soccer too. Oh yes!

But no one else has seen it....

Doesn't sound too convincing, does it?

[Sagacious Lu]

...but up against seasoned streetfighters or martial artists a beginner with less than 2-3 years tend not to have the knowledge of body mechanics to generate power from the floor and put full bodyweight behind a strike to make it decisive.

This is what I mean by teaching the simple stuff first. It doesn't take 2-3 years just to learn how to punch and kick. It's not like we're talking about brain surgery or nuclear physics here, if a person trains regularly there's no reason why they shouldn't be hitting hard in a couple of months. Why would it take all that time just to learn basic striking mechanics

[Troll Virus]

and TV nodding along, as if he knew most of it already too..... just forgot to say.

Actually, I'm frequently disagreeing.
I just do that in a different way.
One that promotes discussion and learning.

TB, are you on 'Roids' by any chance?

[tjwingchun]

Why are the simpler things taught last? Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the simplist things first? IMHO the simple techniques are usually the most effective.

Its a natural learning process, its not that they are held back but you need to know how all of your body works individually before putting it back together, and once you can see the whole picture you begin to notice how simple it is, but you have to learn the language before you can converse.

[tjwingchun]

I get that.
My background in various other CMA gives me an insight into what you mean.
As sson as you mention 'stance' in a contemporary MA discussion it brings up a plethora of misconceptions though.
To me, a stance, is an ideal, momentary manifestation of structure, which in practice, rarely occurs.





On the subject of this thread though;
What are your thoughts on 'One year of Wing Chun'?

Assuming that there are expectations that the system should be producing 'fighters' (whatever they are), do you feel Wing Chun fulfills these needs within a year?

If the onus is on the individual to extract what they need, does Wing Chun make this clear?
I ask as clearly some people feel 'let down'.

Me personally, I don't believe any style/system has much to do with changing one kind of person into another, other than how they perceive their own training.
Never been a sheep myself.

Over the years several of my students have put down their training for ways in which they have progressed as individuals, but I also understand your reticence in believing the style was the answer, it may have just been coincidence with their 'growing up' and natural psychological development, who can say?

I think Wing Chun has the tools to allow an individual to develop basic self defence abilities, I have had several students who have used simple chain punching to put off attackers, from school yard scenario to drunken brawl on a Saturday night, but I would not say they are definitive to the effectiveness of Wing Chun just that a little bit of knowledge can go along way in the majority of street situations, but up against seasoned streetfighters or martial artists a beginner with less than 2-3 years tend not to have the knowledge of body mechanics to generate power from the floor and put full bodyweight behind a strike to make it decisive.

My understanding of Siu Lim Tao, or my take on the "Little Idea" translation, goes along one of the lines I have heard came from Yip Man, in that it is to get rid of all the 'little' or 'small' ideas in your head and focus on the form.

This tells me that in essence it is a form of 'meditation', or concentration, teaching you to focus on the movements of the body and investigate the mechanics of how your arms work, without being distracted by what you were doing the night before? how are you going to pay bills? or how much of a prat you look in the stance?

The preparation that Siu Lim Tao offers for the progression to Chum Kiu is invaluable. The discipline learned through investigating the simple movements of the arm, a relatively co-ordinated part of the body, translated to both arms independantly, the legs and whole body usage becomes a whole different ball game, but the awareness developed in Siu Lim Tao helps isolate all the movements into abstract, exaggerated techniques, not for application but for co-ordination and knowledge of SELF.

As with most Martial Arts you only start to get your foot onthe learning ladder after about a minimum of 4 years, the time I think a good student with decent instructor should be through the whole system, then once they have taken a student of their own through the complete system can they really be considered as getting somewhere, lol.

After just one year I would expect a fair knowledge of simple application of SLT, basic leg work, starting Chum Kiu and the beginnings of Chi Sau skills. Again it depends on the individuals involved and the circumstances of their training to make any definite statements.

Naaa'ever been into the sheep experience either, got no wellies , nor pulling the wool over people eyes.

[Sagacious Lu]

I put that down to people not fully understanding how the forms can be interpretated, I have reasons for every part of all the forms some are not relevant until the whole system is understood, the trouble is too many think they have finished their learning with the forms and don't get to the deeper, simpler ways of applying Wing Chun.

Why are the simpler things taught last? Wouldn't it make more sense to teach the simplist things first? IMHO the simple techniques are usually the most effective.

[tjwingchun]

People have taken WC forwards. By cross training. It's just that the more they cross train the less WC gets left. Why is that?

I put that down to people not fully understanding how the forms can be interpretated, I have reasons for every part of all the forms some are not relevant until the whole system is understood, the trouble is too many think they have finished their learning with the forms and don't get to the deeper, simpler ways of applying Wing Chun.

[tjwingchun]

Cheap shot?

The title of the thread is a cheap shot. If you're going to give it, you'd better be able to take it.

I took it from Troll Virus's post in my Introduction as a light hearted way to start a threadon stances.

It was not a shot at you, if you felt that then I apologise, I have not known you long enough to risk my sense of humour on you, but be sure once we get to know each other we should have a laugh,

[Thai Bri]

People have taken WC forwards. By cross training. It's just that the more they cross train the less WC gets left. Why is that?