Wing Chun and Weights Training

[Ghost]

"One who excels as a warrior does not appear formidable"

this quote is surely about humility rather than appearing to be fit.

it would go against common sense to rationalise that a good fighter would appear to be unfit.

I would assume it means you dress in a humble way, not showing yourself off, not provoking violence and not boasting.
therefore appearing to be meak and mild. thus avoiding conflict in the first place.

[Shard]

Ghost, as i stated a number of times, weight training has a number of benefits. However, making you faster is definitely not one of them. It may not necessarily slow you down, but there is no evidence or logic to support the claim that it can make you faster.

It is all dependant on how you train with weights. Sprinters who run 100m in under 10s use weights when they train. Footballers who have sprint to cover 40m in under 5 seconds use weights to train.
It all depends on how you use the weights. If your goal is bodybuilding, then weights will impact performance or more specifically impact your speed in an adverse way. Building muscle for the sake of muscle is going to be determental.
However, with the right training, weights can improve speed and power. An excellent example of a weight exercise that can help build speed and power is the olympic style snatch.

[SmallThought]

good post.
that doesnt mean a guy with no training will beat a guy with loads just cos hes fitter. it means you need both but conditioning is a really HUGE aspect.
as a PT you should be aware of this. i know WC is designed for people without a ton of power but the more you have the more effective it is.

True, Ghost, conditioning is a large part of fighting as well as just getting through your day with energy to spare, no matter what your day entailed: for instance, getting mugged on your way home.
My comments regarding conditioning v application of principles in this thread relate only to my personal experience with Wing Chun. Instances where my technical ability/knowledge/application enabled me to out fight physically larger, obviously stronger and fitter sparring/training partners. Many of these partners had more years of training under their belt, but as pointed out by my instructors, had not grasped some of the elemental principles of the system.

Again, even the power of Wing Chun is not based on physical strength, rather speed and timing. The benefit i gained from training with these stronger/ fitter partners was that i was forced to hone my technique and focus fully on applying the principles; otherwise i would have walked out of every training session a very sore (and frustrated) little chappy.

So, in my opinion, strength and conditioning have a place in Wing Chun but that place is secondary to understanding and being able to apply the principles.

The unfortunate fact is that most, not all, people who dedicate time to weight training, learn to rely on that extra muscle and feeling of power and neglect the fundamental training of picking apart every part of their Wing Chun so as to fully understand it. It doesn't matter how many wieghts you lift; how strong or fast or physically fit you become; there will always be someone bigger, stronger, fitter than you. However, with the right approach to training (& quality instruction), it is far less likely that you will come acoss someone who is technically more accurate and able to counter a situation.

According to the the first line of the traditional fighting philosophy we learned:

"One who excels as a warrior does not appear formidable"

Good luck with your training.
Peace out.

[Ghost]

Then surely the person with the ability to apply these principles, combined with the added strength, endurence and fitness of someone performing the correct weight lifting techniques at the gym would come out ontop??

Look at it this way: You have a pair of twins, both have been studying Wing Chun for 10 years and are equally as skilled. One regularly lifts weights (Not as a body builder but performs strength and fitness exersizes), and one does not.
They fight to the death.... who do you think would win?

My point is that you dont have to choose the 'Principles' of wing chun over the weight lifting exersizes. Surely a combination of both would be the best option. I know a lot of the old school Wing Chun teachers say that weight lifting is bad for wing chun, but any athlete that traints in speed and power uses weights! Isnt it logical that using the muscles that you would use in a real fight (at your wing chun class or at the gym) would help you be a better fighter... why not combine the two?

I agree with what elements of what smallthought and ghost are saying but i say that you dont have to choose one way or the other... you can combine both.

good post.
smallthought, you can get stronger through weights and increase speed. thats science.
increasing fast twitch muscle fibres along with the correct neural adaptations will allow this.
In most cases in a fight the stronger fitter guy wins.
fighting is 70% conditioning 30% technique. roughly.
most martial arts systems acknowledge this.
that doesnt mean a guy with no training will beat a guy with loads just cos hes fitter. it means you need both but conditioning is a really HUGE aspect.
as a PT you should be aware of this. i know WC is designed for people without a ton of power but the more you have the more effective it is.

[SmallThought]

Look at it this way: You have a pair of twins, both have been studying Wing Chun for 10 years and are equally as skilled. One regularly lifts weights (Not as a body builder but performs strength and fitness exersizes), and one does not.
They fight to the death.... who do you think would win?.....

Hopefully they would not be doing such a silly thing but in that scenario the person with the best grasp on the principles and applications would win. Training and fighting are far from a purely physical thing and even twins differ in the ability to grasp concepts; that, combined with fighting spirit and diligent training are the most important aspects of effective Wing Chun.

I agree with what elements of what smallthought and ghost are saying but i say that you dont have to choose one way or the other... you can combine both.

Fair enough. I'm glad this discussion has helped you reach a personal decission.

Good luck with your training.
Peace out.

[Grixti]

Wing Chun is a PRINCIPLE based system. It has nothing to do with how strong you are and EVERYTHING to do with your understanding and ability to apply the PRINCIPLES. It has far less to do with the size of your muscles and much more to do with the quality of your mind.

Then surely the person with the ability to apply these principles, combined with the added strength, endurence and fitness of someone performing the correct weight lifting techniques at the gym would come out ontop??

Look at it this way: You have a pair of twins, both have been studying Wing Chun for 10 years and are equally as skilled. One regularly lifts weights (Not as a body builder but performs strength and fitness exersizes), and one does not.
They fight to the death.... who do you think would win?

My point is that you dont have to choose the 'Principles' of wing chun over the weight lifting exersizes. Surely a combination of both would be the best option. I know a lot of the old school Wing Chun teachers say that weight lifting is bad for wing chun, but any athlete that traints in speed and power uses weights! Isnt it logical that using the muscles that you would use in a real fight (at your wing chun class or at the gym) would help you be a better fighter... why not combine the two?

I agree with what elements of what smallthought and ghost are saying but i say that you dont have to choose one way or the other... you can combine both.

[SmallThought]

I reiterate....

Ghost, as i stated a number of times, weight training has a number of benefits. However, making you faster is definitely not one of them. It may not necessarily slow you down, but there is no evidence or logic to support the claim that it can make you faster.

I don't claim to have read everything, but i do know a little something after being a personal trainer for many years.

Again, i have used weights to augment other physical pursuits such as cycling. What this thread is addressing, though, is the relevance of weight training for WING CHUN. Now, if you are going to assert that the principle of non-contention (or NOT fighting force with force) is bullshit, then it clearly demonstrates you ignorance of that system and it's principles. I'm not questioning your knowledge on fitness training or other martial arts, as it is clear you are well read and i assume you have some training.

Wing Chun is a PRINCIPLE based system. It has nothing to do with how strong you are and EVERYTHING to do with your understanding and ability to apply the PRINCIPLES. It has far less to do with the size of your muscles and much more to do with the quality of your mind.

Understandably this may be construed as my point of view only; and so it is. So, if you wish to train with weights to enhance your WING CHUN training..... go right ahead.

[Ghost]

Weight training will allow you to develop more power if you do it correctly.

all this fighting force with force stuff is bullshit, sorry.

If your muscles are stronger and faster then you will produce more power.

it is quite possible to develop useless muscle as well. but if you understand principles such as lactate training, recruiting high threshold motor units and improving muscular, elastic and reflexive factors in force production etc you can go a long way to making huge improvements in performance.

Martial arts are often stuck in the dulldrums when it comes to modern scientific training methods. Some embrace weights but many ridicule it.

If you are saying NO to weights let me ask you this. Are you making an informed choice? Have you read extensively and understood what the CORRECT type of weight training can do for you?
Or are you simply repeating what you have been told. Or basing you desision on simplistic logic that you have reasoned without any detailed scientific knowledge.
Most people think weights = bodybuilding. that is so far from the truth.

My suggestion is to read up, know what you are talking about, then discredit weights if you really must, but id be amazed if anyone still did.

As i posted in the other thread, some reading for those interested.
This article analyses the difference between non functional hypertrophy and functional hypertrophy. It starts by explaining that standard bodybuilding is in fact useless for athletes but goes on to explain strenght training in detail and its benefits.

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do;jsessionid=0230C308E9B26FEBF0B29501DBEB8665.hydra?id=1494202&cr=

[DickHardman]

there have been people of smaller stature that have beaten people much larger in every style and discipline around, this not something unique to wingchun.

also, i never said that weight lifting was absolutely needed, only that lifting can offer nothing but benefits, ones that are important for martial artists.

is lifting crucial to being good at wing chun? not necessarily. however, it can offer benefits that can make you a better martial artist overall. or it can take your well developed skills and push them even farther. for example, extra muscle over your body parts can help protect you from blows or protect your body and bones if you are thrown down to the ground by someone. it can give you more endurance which means that you can perform better for longer periods of time, which means you could train longer than normal, which means you are learning more than you normally would. weight lifting can also increase your bone density, which would protect your hands from fracturing and make your strikes harder as well. weight lifting can make you healthier as well and having good health is a form of self defense.

i dunno, if you dont want to reap the benefits its up to you, i myself totally advocate weight lifting for all martial artists.

[SmallThought]

Fair enough....

There is a great joke about martial arts.... in fact, it's the only martial arts joke i know. It goes a little something like this:

Q: How many martial artists does it take to change a light bulb???
A: 12; 1 to change the light bulb and 11 to stand around saying, "We'd do that differently in my school!!!"

My point being that i don't know what principles they teach at your Wing Chun school, but i was taught that apart from the obvious benefits of physical fitness, "strength" plays little to no part in the effective application of Wing Chun. If it did, how could a frail, homeless, under-nourished opium addict like Yip Man defeat a much younger, larger and stronger practitioner of White Eyebrow at the Hong Kong Restaurant Workers Union?

Fighting force with force is not just "in the mind", it is a physical habbit to which we have all been conditioned all our lives. One that we must train in earnest to break if we are to become truely effective practitioners of Wing Chun Kung Fu.

If you have already broken the habbit of fighting force with force and can already move like air around your opponent's oncoming force whilst counter striking with the full force of your entire body weight in rapid succession; by all means, continue training with weights; they do have many benefits. High reps, low weights can indeed build endurance, but only to defined limits and in very specific muscle groups. Lesson one in training to be a fitness leader (personal trainer) is that fitness is specific. That is: what you train will make you fit for that activity. No matter how fit an olympic marathon runner is, put him in the Tour de France and he wont make it through day one; and the same is true in reverse. You can (and should) train for general fitness and conditioning, but you don't need weights to do this! Building external muscle strength is less important than learning to harness the inherent/internal strength you have been naturally granted. Some of us call this Chi.

To say certain weight excersises are "crucial" is all well and good, but to what exactly are they crucial??? It certainly is not true that they are crucial to the execution or training of Wing Chun Kung Fu. Perhaps they are crucial to cutting a fine figure whilst practicing Wing Chun. Have a close look at any photos you can find of Yip Man; do you think he ever trained with weights? Are you questioning his ability as a Wing Chun man?

In my humble, yet considered opinion; it is always best to train exactly what you are training for. I can not tell you what is best for you, i can only share what my Sigung told me in order to benefit my training as a full time student. After all, i never knew Yip Man, but Sigung did.

Peace out!
Have fun with your training.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

lifting weights makes you faster just as long as you stretch. High reps with low weight give you muscular endurance. High weight with low reps gives you much more strength.

Doing excersizes with only your bodyweight like pushups, pull ups, sit ups, etc... are not enough, using freeweights for squats, dead lifts, lateral raises, etc are crucial.

[DickHardman]

sorry, but i disagree with you. i dont see how weight lifting can be bad for you. the stuff about weight lifting giving you a tendency to want to fight force with force is all in your head inmop. it can only make you more efficient physically. if your muscles are stronger they will be able to move faster.

[SmallThought]

Do not fight force with force.....

One of the first principles we learn in Wing Chun to, as above, "do not fight force with force". Growing up, i copied my brother and father and trained a lot in the gym. I had plenty of muscular power and it helped when i was a cyclist. I guess it even helped when i was faced with multiple attackers before i started training Wing Chun.

However; after i started training Wing Chun as a fultime student, my Sigung suggested that i stop training with weights as it was re-enforcing the tendancy to fight force with force..... a habbit that we can all practice with out any instruction. Instead, it was suggested that i practice my forms (particularly the Shil Lim Tao) as often and for as long as possible. These forms were developed to specifically train the required musculature involved in correctly performing Wing Chun.

As a personal trainer, i still used weights occassionally as i had to demonstrate technique to clients, etc; althought i kept that to a minimum and concentrated my own training on Wing Chun specific practices. Personally, the best non-martial cross training i found for strength, endurance and energy conservation was rock climbing.

Good luck with your training.

Peace out!

[Grixti]

DO NOT LIFT WEIGHTS!!!

get the hell away from the gym. why would you ever consider lifting weights???
why would you want to make yourself bigger, stronger, and have higher endurance??? why would you ever want to grow extra muscles that would protect your body more help you be fit, strong and healthy? you dont want denser stronger bones either do you??yeah man, all that would really impede you as a martial artist.

not only that, but you will get so big so fast(almost overnight after 1 session) that you wont even be able to scratch the back of your neck cause you will get so big and bulky.

Ok...... Thanks for that..... i think??

[Red Rum]

...Nopes.

The leg machine won't help you stand in those wing chun stances...the muscle groups that get cooked the most by that are the hip adductors and the hip abductors...essentially the outside and inside of your thighs...
there are special machines for these, such as some of the products produced by Hammer Strength equipment. Still...holding the stances for a prolonged period of time is different from doing explosive reps...it's more muscular endurance than musclar strength.
THE BEST WAY to build the strength to sit for extended periods of time in those stances, is quite simply to sit in those stances for extended periods of time. If you get bored, mix it up with wall sits.
Olympic and 3/4 squats could probably work much better than the leg press for lower body strength anyway.


...which is another point...SQUATS are for legs and core...NOT upper body.

Sorry, I wasn't too specific about the squats - I am stretching out the bar across my shoulders and arms so it is developing both legs and shoulders

The wing chun stance (at least the way Kamon does it) come from the thighs and hips. Again I wasn't that specific - I was talking about Bil ma stance as well as the basic stance

But I think you know more about gym work than I do Garland