When is wing chun not wing chun ?

[Gurokevin]

I think that when you steer away from the WC concepts, then it is no longer Wing Chun. As for the fact of people changing things from the time of Ng Mui, I say that was a good chance. Wing Chun as evolved just like everything else. We would be stupid to think that someone just said "Hey, I have a great idea for a martial art" and WHAM, Wing Chun as we know it today.

[SmallThought]

efficiency & effect...

Wing Chun, according to oral tradition, was developed by the Grand Masters of the Shil Lim to be efficient and effective (only later were the basic principles further developed and applied by Ng Mui, using mainly Snake and Crane techniques, of which she was Grand Master, with a smattering of tiger, mantis and other systems; of which much may or may not have been added by subsequent Grand Masters of the system.). To achieve this, they cast aside the the traditions of their individual systems in order to ascertain the most efficient, effective principles and techniques contained with in and common to each system. As such, Wing Chun has always been concerned with the "concept v's tradition debate". It may even be argued that it is the influence of Wing Chun on modern martial arts that has instilled this now common philosophy.

In fact, according to the school i trained at, to be graded to master in Wing Chun, it was necessary to remove something from the system and add something else to make it more efficient as well as to personalise it for the individual master. This is in accordance to the philosophy of stripping away what is superfluous and embracing what is truely effective and efficient. In fact, one of my Sihings (a police officer) used to joke that when he graded for Master, he was going to remove the Dragon Pole form, as no-one fights with long pole spears/pikes, etc. any more, and replace it with the Quick Draw Glock Urban Combat Form!!!

I was taught that the principles of the system and not the techniques were it's heart and soul. The techniques, or movements, are simply vehicles for the principles to operate and to be learned. That being said, centuries of practice have formalised certain movements to correspond to certain principles... i always saw certain Wing Chun techniques to be a form of basic bio-mechanics and considered Wing Chun to be the "Human System" developed from the "Animal Systems". But enough of my personal hypothesese and back to the thread topic. Bare with me, my point will soon be clear.

On this basis of efficiency and effectiveness, Wing Chun has only three empty hand forms (as we all know). The final of these, the Thrusting Fingers (however you want to pronounce or spell it in it chinese form) is the emergency tool kit for when it all goes wrong. Now, i may get into trouble for saying this, but i was taught that the purpose of the Bil Jee was to "take you out of the system in order to re-enter it", that is, break the Wing Chun "rules", or principles in order to regroup and re-apply them. It is the form that allows for the inadequacies or falabilities inherrent in any formalised system.

By this, any technique may be employed by a Wing Chun practitioner, as long as it is adherrant to the principles of the system, or enabling the practitioner to retreat effectively in order to regroup and re-enter. Again, the technique is simply the vehicle for the principle.

So, to give my short answer after prattling on about the rules and flexibility inherent to Wing Chun, it IS NOT Wing Chun if:
1/ You are fighting force with force (and this encompasses a whole set of sub clauses to which i will not elaborate)
2/ You are not employing forward force to exert pressure on the opponent, &/or
3/You are not protecting and controlling the center line.

In my opinion, as i was taught, these are the fundumentals that must dictate any combat encounter for a Wing Chun practioner. Anytime these (and the other basic principles) are compromised, the Wing Chun practioner may retreat in order to re-establish control of the encounter.

If you are not applying these principles and consider yourself intermediate-advanced in the system, you may as well go practice something else; because anytime a combat encounter occurs, you are not practicing Wing Chun and will eventually become one of those annoying grumplers running around saying, "Wing Chun is crap because it let me down in a fight".

In fact, if you are adhering to the first principle of "Avoid fighting force with force" you will very rarely ever have the cause to "test" your Wing Chun in a fight..... but that's just my philosophical take on it.

Have fun.

[cam]

I'm quite sure that Yip Man had changed some things. And, I'm sure everyone who passed wing chun on before Yip Man had added, taken out, or modified some things. It's human nature. Wing chun is always evolving.

[Red Rum]

Interesting topic.

I have seen 'wing chun' schools use jumping kicks and rear naked chokes

In Kamon, Master Chan uses moves from BJJ and boxing but these are taught as seperate items (as opposed to claiming that they are wing chun moves)

I have always said that any move that fits into the main principles of wing chun is technically wing chun.

Did Yip Man teach 'traditional wing chun?' How would we know unless we somehow managed to see Ng Mui in training?

[cam]

If you are using wing chun concepts, then you are using wing chun.
If you are adhering to tradition, then you are no longer fighting effectively and are no longer using proper wing chun. IMHO.

[freefighter2010]

When people talk about modern wing chun ? or street fighting wing chun . Surely this is not wing chun anymore ? as it no longer using the traditional moves.

Your thoughts pelase ?