The Chain Punch...

[Ghost]

Damn. That's saying something.

Its true though, to suggest its hard to rely on your eyes in a fight is as idiotic as it gets.
Clubs like these should be shut down and named and shamed for the mcdojos that they are.

The problem is the students that go cant see it. They think their place is special and that everyone else either doesnt understand or isnt being taught properly.
Most never find out that they are at a mcdojo because they beleive so strongly in what they are doing that they cant question it any more. Which is the sure fire signal that its a mcdojo.
To say that its hard to rely on your eyes in a real fight is the single most ridiculous statement ive read on this site bar none.
His posts in general smack of mcdojo cult like brainwashing which is clearly obvious to everyone else i expect but not to him because he is the one stuck in it.

[Red Rum]

Thats the biggest load of rubbish ive read on this site.

your posts are bizarre in the extreme.

Ive been in martial arts long enough to recognise cult-like brainwashing when i see it.

Your mother was a snow blower

[Ghost]

Yeah my point was that even as a sarcastic rant, putting one style into one box is misguided. It would be like me grouping Shaolin styles together.
A local school 'Nam Yang' did a demo recently which was dreadful. Yet I wouldn't suggest for one minute that this is representative of all shaolin styles.


Again you are grouping it as one thing. There are so many variations of wing chun that putting them in one box is ludicrous. There is no overall governing body, and some instructors like the traditional way of wing chun, whereas others want to improve its fighting ability. Also a lot of Masters do not do other martial arts, so it is hard for them to adapt the system


Sensitivity is incredibly important in a fight. If you have ever been in a fight (and I'm not judging you if you haven't), most of the time it is hard to rely on your eyes. In things like boxers clinches, or grabs, you can feel when you're opponent is going to release his hand before he does the action
If a person strikes and makes contact with your arm, you will find ways round the arm, instead of relying on your eyes to try and look for gaps. If you hit someone and they go back, your sensitivity will help follow them (rather than let them break off and come back and attack). Sensitivity is a tool. It is not a secret art that will give you super powers or something but it will help you greatly. I do well in BJJ because of this stick. Without it, I would have to rely a lot on reaction


If you are talking solely about ring fighting then I will withdraw that.
I have seen people in their 50s pull off a roundhouse kick, but it has not been of great quality. I'm not saying that older/bigger people cannot do it, but that a newbie to martial arts who is past the age of 30 would most rather do a stamp kick than a roundhouse. In a street confrontation, you don't have a nice ring and lots of space. Things like roundhouse kicks are more difficult to pull off. I've been drunk before and still pulled off a stamp kick.

Doesn't mean that roundhouse kicks are rubbish only that they have their time and place

Thats the biggest load of rubbish ive read on this site.

your posts are bizarre in the extreme.

Ive been in martial arts long enough to recognise cult-like brainwashing when i see it.

[Red Rum]

Actually, Liberty, that's nasty but the arm breaks to which Michael and I were referring are the standing wrenches and such that happen in a clinch. It's not hard at all to break an arm when you have a guy stabilized and in a dominant position with weight on him. It's harder to do, though, when you're on one knee punching down at him, or when you're standing with him and there's nothing to stop him from moving with a sudden force.

And you think that someone like Kevin Chan couldn't do that. And before you kick off again, I mention Kevin Chan, because it was him in that one knee position, and him who was referred to originally.

In that position I put a bit of leverage on the arm and the person who 'moved with a sudden force' hurt themselves

As I said before, it is worth going down to a BJJ dojo and asking the guys there this very question. If I can pull it off, I am sure the guys who do this day in day out will show you the leverage you can get in that position. That's not a challenge, but a genuine reccomendation, as my word doesn't seem good enough for you guys

[Red Rum]

My background is in Southern Shaolin Tiger-Claw and Northern Mantis. I don't know what dark path you're speaking of but I call it critical thinking. If you critically read my post (which you might not have - I don't blame you I probably wouldn't have either - it was a RANT) you would have noticed that I was lumping everything into one - especially with WC - I can definitely expand this to just TCMA as well as they have the same issues but the practioners aren't so zealot like in there belief in the style. The reason why I lump WC or any other style of that matter is because people who aren't within the system will lump everything together. Collective of BS overtime isn't going to CMA prosper. .

Yeah my point was that even as a sarcastic rant, putting one style into one box is misguided. It would be like me grouping Shaolin styles together.
A local school 'Nam Yang' did a demo recently which was dreadful. Yet I wouldn't suggest for one minute that this is representative of all shaolin styles.

Let me ask you this. If WC claims to be a combative system why doesn't the system as a whole change with the times? Why is it only a few of the "Masters" that are willing to add or changes things...

Again you are grouping it as one thing. There are so many variations of wing chun that putting them in one box is ludicrous. There is no overall governing body, and some instructors like the traditional way of wing chun, whereas others want to improve its fighting ability. Also a lot of Masters do not do other martial arts, so it is hard for them to adapt the system

Ps. Please eloborate how sticky hands - I can see how it increases sensitivity but what are these advantages that you speak of and who are these basic opponents..

Sensitivity is incredibly important in a fight. If you have ever been in a fight (and I'm not judging you if you haven't), most of the time it is hard to rely on your eyes. In things like boxers clinches, or grabs, you can feel when you're opponent is going to release his hand before he does the action
If a person strikes and makes contact with your arm, you will find ways round the arm, instead of relying on your eyes to try and look for gaps. If you hit someone and they go back, your sensitivity will help follow them (rather than let them break off and come back and attack). Sensitivity is a tool. It is not a secret art that will give you super powers or something but it will help you greatly. I do well in BJJ because of this stick. Without it, I would have to rely a lot on reaction

To address your question on "Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house. WHO SAID IT DOES?" Nobody - thats my point. I don't think the system adequetly address that issue.
"Also someone who is big or getting on in life doesn't want to be performing roundhouse kicks when it is easier just to kick down!" Someone who is big or getting on in life. . . what does that mean? Please clarify - are you saying a bigger fighter would much rather do stomp kicks then round house kicks as opposed to a smaller fighter? I believe that those of us who do fight in the ring let alone on the street seldom get that luxury of choice.

If you are talking solely about ring fighting then I will withdraw that.
I have seen people in their 50s pull off a roundhouse kick, but it has not been of great quality. I'm not saying that older/bigger people cannot do it, but that a newbie to martial arts who is past the age of 30 would most rather do a stamp kick than a roundhouse. In a street confrontation, you don't have a nice ring and lots of space. Things like roundhouse kicks are more difficult to pull off. I've been drunk before and still pulled off a stamp kick.

Doesn't mean that roundhouse kicks are rubbish only that they have their time and place

[Liberty]

Actually, Liberty, that's nasty but the arm breaks to which Michael and I were referring are the standing wrenches and such that happen in a clinch. It's not hard at all to break an arm when you have a guy stabilized and in a dominant position with weight on him. It's harder to do, though, when you're on one knee punching down at him, or when you're standing with him and there's nothing to stop him from moving with a sudden force.

Tell that to this guy - LOL! Well, enjoy the visuals (er, vision?) LOL!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq-Cmqypezg[/YOUTUBE]

[Ghost]

When people are sparring or fighting in the ring they dont expect their arm to be broken, at the point where they lose they tap out.

If someone's arm is really at stake they behave differently.

[Liberty]

I'd certainly be interested to see it work. It's not that I doubt it, but I'd love to see the difference between a win and "devastation and destruction."

You mean this nasty arm break, God that must've hurt! There are many other clips like it on the tube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ghZjXYWZpxY

[npk9]

D@mnit for the double post!!!! sorry.

[npk9]

Oh dear lord...

Just out of curiousity, which CMA do you do dude?
You seem to have put wing chun into one box, which frustrates me.
And I would suggest that you read this post over again regarding challenges. If you want to go there, you are going down a dark path.

Protecting the center line is all good and dandy but it doesn't accout for fatigue and damage to arms and legs. - HUH?
Sticky hands . . . . . . . I'm not gonna even address that. WHY NOT?
Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house. WHO SAID IT DOES?
Fixed stances. . . . again not going there. SO YOU BASICALLY AREN'T EVEN GOING TO MAKE A VALID POINT ABOUT ANYTHING?

Centre line is a basic theory and not exclusive to wing chun. UFC fighters use it, BJJ guys use it. It is an idea and you aren't going to drop dead if you don't use it
Sticky hands is a tool and again not exclusive to wing chun. We use it to build sensitvity which allows a great advantage to basic opponents at street level
Stomp kicks have their place in fights, just like roundhouses. I will say that in all the fights I have been in (including tournaments) I think I have seen a good roundhouse pulled off about twice. Stamping kicks have been used numerous times (whether they apear as oush kicks in Muay Thai or as a way of hacking legs down). Also someone who is big or getting on in life doesn't want to be performing roundhouse kicks when it is easier just to kick down!
Fixed stances are training stances. Half the point of chi sao is getting you to move with an opponent with loose adaptable footwork
Arrow walk, circle step, triangle step are there to just train your legs. You aren't going to stand statically in the street!!

NPK9, I don't know where your aggression to WC comes from, but it is not a good thing. I see TKD classes all the time doing unrealistic moves and calling it 'street style self defence'. Yet I understand and appreciate that TYKD is not the same in every dojo and there are some practitioners that excel beyond the training

My background is in Southern Shaolin Tiger-Claw and Northern Mantis. I don't know what dark path you're speaking of but I call it critical thinking. If you critically read my post (which you might not have - I don't blame you I probably wouldn't have either - it was a RANT) you would have noticed that I was lumping everything into one - especially with WC - I can definitely expand this to just TCMA as well as they have the same issues but the practioners aren't so zealot like in there belief in the style. The reason why I lump WC or any other style of that matter is because people who aren't within the system will lump everything together. Collective of BS overtime isn't going to CMA prosper.

Let me ask you this. If WC claims to be a combative system why doesn't the system as a whole change with the times? Why is it only a few of the "Masters" that are willing to add or changes things.

Ps. Please eloborate how sticky hands - I can see how it increases sensitivity but what are these advantages that you speak of and who are these basic opponents.


To address your question on "Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house. WHO SAID IT DOES?" Nobody - thats my point. I don't think the system adequetly address that issue.
"Also someone who is big or getting on in life doesn't want to be performing roundhouse kicks when it is easier just to kick down!" Someone who is big or getting on in life. . . what does that mean? Please clarify - are you saying a bigger fighter would much rather do stomp kicks then round house kicks as opposed to a smaller fighter? I believe that those of us who do fight in the ring let alone on the street seldom get that luxury of choice.

[npk9]

Oh dear lord...

Just out of curiousity, which CMA do you do dude?
You seem to have put wing chun into one box, which frustrates me.
And I would suggest that you read this post over again regarding challenges. If you want to go there, you are going down a dark path.

Protecting the center line is all good and dandy but it doesn't accout for fatigue and damage to arms and legs. - HUH?
Sticky hands . . . . . . . I'm not gonna even address that. WHY NOT?
Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house. WHO SAID IT DOES?
Fixed stances. . . . again not going there. SO YOU BASICALLY AREN'T EVEN GOING TO MAKE A VALID POINT ABOUT ANYTHING?

Centre line is a basic theory and not exclusive to wing chun. UFC fighters use it, BJJ guys use it. It is an idea and you aren't going to drop dead if you don't use it
Sticky hands is a tool and again not exclusive to wing chun. We use it to build sensitvity which allows a great advantage to basic opponents at street level
Stomp kicks have their place in fights, just like roundhouses. I will say that in all the fights I have been in (including tournaments) I think I have seen a good roundhouse pulled off about twice. Stamping kicks have been used numerous times (whether they apear as oush kicks in Muay Thai or as a way of hacking legs down). Also someone who is big or getting on in life doesn't want to be performing roundhouse kicks when it is easier just to kick down!
Fixed stances are training stances. Half the point of chi sao is getting you to move with an opponent with loose adaptable footwork
Arrow walk, circle step, triangle step are there to just train your legs. You aren't going to stand statically in the street!!

NPK9, I don't know where your aggression to WC comes from, but it is not a good thing. I see TKD classes all the time doing unrealistic moves and calling it 'street style self defence'. Yet I understand and appreciate that TYKD is not the same in every dojo and there are some practitioners that excel beyond the training

My background is in Southern Shaolin Tiger-Claw and Northern Mantis. I don't know what dark path you're speaking of but I call it critical thinking. If you critically read my post (which you might not have - I don't blame you I probably wouldn't have either - it was a RANT) you would have noticed that I was lumping everything into one - especially with WC - I can definitely expand this to just TCMA as well as they have the same issues but the practioners aren't so zealot like in there belief in the style. The reason why I lump WC or any other style of that matter is because people who aren't within the system will lump everything together. Collective of BS overtime isn't going to CMA prosper.

Let me ask you this. If WC claims to be a combative system why doesn't the system as a whole change with the times? Why is it only a few of the "Masters" that are willing to add or changes things.

Ps. Please eloborate how sticky hands - I can see how it increases sensitivity but what are these advantages that you speak of and who are these basic opponents.


To address your question on "Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house. WHO SAID IT DOES?" Nobody - thats my point. I don't think the system adequetly address that issue.
"Also someone who is big or getting on in life doesn't want to be performing roundhouse kicks when it is easier just to kick down!" Someone who is big or getting on in life. . . what does that mean? Please clarify - are you saying a bigger fighter would much rather do stomp kicks then round house kicks as opposed to a smaller fighter? I believe that those of us who do fight in the ring let alone on the street seldom get that luxury of choice.

[Anti]

I concentrate my fights on getting in, generally with a chain punch or a lower kick, then going into the clinch for more of the muay thai knees, etc. The chain punh isnt much as a knockout tool, as said, but it is great for getting hits in, getting inside, and getting where you wanna be in the fight. Id generally get only two or three hits beore ging for a kick, knee, etc. Practice it with more than 3 hits to get effective with it (im sure you know), but in a real fight make sure not to rely on it.
-Anti

Coming down to your dojo and you showing me a bunch of arm break techniques is a totally moot point. As a Jun Fan, Kali and PFS Instructor, don't you think I already know a one or two break techniques? I could show you 100 variations of how to break an arm, in theory. That why when you said come down to the dojo my response was serious, you're going to have to break my arm to prove me wrong, and thats not really an intelligent way to approach this.

Look, to draw a line under this discussion, you keep saying that I think arm breaks don't work, which I never said. My point, for the third time, is that their effective use in a real scenario against an aggressive opponent is very exceptional, and doesn't work anything like martial artists casually show in their demos. Thats my point of view, you have a different one, thats fine - you don't have to drag me down to your dojo to argue your point.

As a final note, in your response to Mike you have introduced another claim, that you have fought in the Octagon. Any MMA event in this country, even at a basic level, tapes the fights and typically makes them available on their websites. I know because my students fight MMA at FX3 in Reading and also K1 events around the country. If you have fought MMA and used your Wing Chun to great effect, I am sure that all of us on here would be genuinely interested to see that. Whats more it would be a great oppourtunity for you to show in action the concepts you passionately endorse in your posts. So if you have footage available of your MMA fights showing the effectiveness of your Wing Chun, I think that would be an education to us all. Can you help us out?

[Red Rum]

I've holding it in as long as I can (6 months now) and can't keep it to myself anymore.

ITS CRAP LIKE THIS THAT HINDERS CMA AND DOES SO MUCH PR DAMAGE TO PRACTITIONERS LIKE ME. . . .

Protecting the center line is all good and dandy but it doesn't accout for fatigue and damage to arms and legs.
Sticky hands . . . . . . . I'm not gonna even address that.
Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house.
Fixed stances. . . . again not going there.

Now this rant is only against WC as a whole.
NOW THIS RANT IS ONLY AGAINST WC AS A WHOLE.

Naming who's your master and what fights they've been in is soo 70's movie its not even funny.

I've been seriously thinking about for the past 3 months and the more I read and research WC the more I think I only have one choice. The challenge all the WC schools in the Philadelphia area and video tape all the fights and blog it - win or lose - I really think they do a disservice to CMA as whole. I think its time for CMA to take a step forward instead of holding to the past.

Okay - there's my rant

Oh dear lord...

Just out of curiousity, which CMA do you do dude?
You seem to have put wing chun into one box, which frustrates me.
And I would suggest that you read this post over again regarding challenges. If you want to go there, you are going down a dark path.

Protecting the center line is all good and dandy but it doesn't accout for fatigue and damage to arms and legs. - HUH?
Sticky hands . . . . . . . I'm not gonna even address that. WHY NOT?
Stomp kick isn't going to stop a round house. WHO SAID IT DOES?
Fixed stances. . . . again not going there. SO YOU BASICALLY AREN'T EVEN GOING TO MAKE A VALID POINT ABOUT ANYTHING?

Centre line is a basic theory and not exclusive to wing chun. UFC fighters use it, BJJ guys use it. It is an idea and you aren't going to drop dead if you don't use it
Sticky hands is a tool and again not exclusive to wing chun. We use it to build sensitvity which allows a great advantage to basic opponents at street level
Stomp kicks have their place in fights, just like roundhouses. I will say that in all the fights I have been in (including tournaments) I think I have seen a good roundhouse pulled off about twice. Stamping kicks have been used numerous times (whether they apear as oush kicks in Muay Thai or as a way of hacking legs down). Also someone who is big or getting on in life doesn't want to be performing roundhouse kicks when it is easier just to kick down!
Fixed stances are training stances. Half the point of chi sao is getting you to move with an opponent with loose adaptable footwork
Arrow walk, circle step, triangle step are there to just train your legs. You aren't going to stand statically in the street!!

NPK9, I don't know where your aggression to WC comes from, but it is not a good thing. I see TKD classes all the time doing unrealistic moves and calling it 'street style self defence'. Yet I understand and appreciate that TYKD is not the same in every dojo and there are some practitioners that excel beyond the training

[Red Rum]

Here's what I see:
I see you syaing you've devastated and destroyed people with your wing chun, as if wing chun itself were some kind of weapon you carry around in a tote bag with you. Then you "add emphasis" to that by saying things like Kevin Chan could own you in a second. Now, I wasn't born yesterday, and it's pretty clear to me what's happening when people make those sorts of statements. I believe it's probably clear to others (like Michael Wright) as well.

As for laying down a challenge, that's exactly and precisely what you did. You even clarified it in your response when you said:

What is that, pray tell, if not a challenge??

you're saying that if I invite people down to my dojo to give them a demonstration, that is a challenge? Brewer, I think there is something wrong with your mindset if you think that. If I dispute something that someone says and they invite me down to their dojo to show me in person I would take it as a gester of goodwill, not a challenge. If they said to me 'come down to my dojo and I will snap your arm in two etc' then fair enough, that is a challenge

Challenges ar stupid and don't prove anything. If Chuck Liddell came down, challenged me and beat me up, it wouldn't make my art less valid. It would prove he was a better fighter, but that's pretty obvious anyway. Likewise, me going down to a boxercise class and challenging the instructor wouldn't exactly prove anything

On to your choice of "devastating and destruction." You mean to tell me that you've entered low-level, pantywaist tournaments with lackluster competition, and you're bragging about being able to beat the kinds of people there? The problem is not the verbs and adverbs, but rather the tone and context. You come across looking like a cocky loudmouth when you use that kind of language. If you don't respect the people you've fought against, that's fine. If you'd rather talk about them like they had no business in the ring with you, it's your own choice.

Not at all. I've been beat numerous times (in the octagon and in the street), but my point was that wing chun does have a valid place in fighting systems
If I named the people I had fought and then bad mouthed them, certainly that is a sign of disrespect. But talking generically gives them anonymity and a little respect even though some of them are not the kind of people I would go for a drink with. I have never said that I am too good to fight anyone.
My point was that wing chun has worked effectively in tournaments

But perhaps the reason you won is because you were competing below your own class and taking advantge of people wihtout thetools or experience to give you a run. I wonder if you'd do the same amount of devastating and destroying if you were evenly matched as you do in these low-level tournaments? Just an honest question. And I certainly mean no more disrespect in asking that way than you mean when you talk about devastating your opponents. Don't take it personally.

Good question, and whilst I say low level, bear in mind that out of 10 fighters, you will often get 2 who are at least your level or above
I say low level, so that people realise that the people competing are not full time professional MMA fighters. Yet they still have skill.

I've got to say, I don't know anything about Kamon Wing Chun except what I see on the net. From all I've heard, they seem like a progressive, effective group. However, you tend to come across as a zealot. It can, at times, give the impression that Kamon is churning out cocky, brash, arrogant students that need to be the center of attention in any discussion involving Wing Chun. Have you noticed that?

If that's the impression I give, then I apologise. I can't speak for everyone in Kamon, but I will say that all classes are friendly environments where people help each other and get on with the training. I'm sure you do get one or two guys who think they can beat up the world (and I assure you that while I may be loudmouthed, I certainly don't think I am some sort of Grand Master or something)

My invitations to come down to my class have always been friendly invites to demonstrate how moves work in person
I don't challenge people to come down for a ruck. That's just silly and dangerous to my students

Ghost - not sure I understand your question dude?
In differing positions, arm breaks can be done different ways and on the floor or on the ground makes no difference (only that the reference I made to Sifu kevin Chan was him in a knelt position over a grounded opponent). Please clarify