Thoughts on the basics.

[kingoftheforest]

first off kotf, cool initial post. second ghost has a pretty good point about the stepping with the rear leg. you can definitely do a lot of damage quickly and efficiently if you add the step with his more power argument with the relaxed whipping and circular motions of kung fu. even if you are a tiny bit slower than not moving, you are bringing so much more power and if you are doing it right you aren't really telegraphing any more than you could hit someone any other way.

besides that just wanted to add you can also hit with your forearm and your shoulder. i think ttescrima brought up the 4 attacks in one motion kind of thing. hitting with a fist then rolling it and hitting with the forearm and the elbow and stuff with one punching motion or step can do a lot of damage, be just as quick, and can help you get around someone else blocking the initial punch. it also lets you build momentum if you can roll it in a tight circle right into the next attack and step.

what i'm explaining isn't necessarily traditional or classic kung fu but if you combine some of what ghost is saying and some of what kotf and tt are saying you are on to what seems like some pretty beasty stuff.

sorry if i'm wrong here and wasting your time guys just thought i'd add my two cents heh

Not a waste of time and good observation. You basically described a lot of what combatives encompass.

Also the principle from Shoalin that form the shoulder to the finger tips is considered the "fist".

[jubaji]

Is it the art they don't like, or just the people who LIKE the art that they dislike so much?

It is the latter I think.

[FoolsTP]

...

first off kotf, cool initial post. second ghost has a pretty good point about the stepping with the rear leg. you can definitely do a lot of damage quickly and efficiently if you add the step with his more power argument with the relaxed whipping and circular motions of kung fu. even if you are a tiny bit slower than not moving, you are bringing so much more power and if you are doing it right you aren't really telegraphing any more than you could hit someone any other way.

besides that just wanted to add you can also hit with your forearm and your shoulder. i think ttescrima brought up the 4 attacks in one motion kind of thing. hitting with a fist then rolling it and hitting with the forearm and the elbow and stuff with one punching motion or step can do a lot of damage, be just as quick, and can help you get around someone else blocking the initial punch. it also lets you build momentum if you can roll it in a tight circle right into the next attack and step.

what i'm explaining isn't necessarily traditional or classic kung fu but if you combine some of what ghost is saying and some of what kotf and tt are saying you are on to what seems like some pretty beasty stuff.

sorry if i'm wrong here and wasting your time guys just thought i'd add my two cents heh

[kingoftheforest]

Where are Michael Wright and Ghost? I miss those English guys!!!!!

As to this percieved rivalry between trad and sports arts, do these Kung fu masters understand that?:

1. Judo is a traditional martial art.
2. BJJ is derived from Judo, so it is also a traditional martial art (with a WHOLE bunch of self defense techniques added, by the way)
3. Muay Thai is a traditional martial art.
4. Boxing/wrestling, though obviously not Asian, are also traditional arts (if you consider that these arts were performed in antiquity (1000's of years before the UFC that these Kung Fu men hate so much)

They are ALL traditional martial arts. Not designed to be sport. But, the simple fact is that just using the non-lethal aspects of all these arts is sufficient to win a fight. You don't have to be a larping, Jedi knight with a pony tail using "deadly" or "secret" techniques to win 99% of ALL fights!

There is a strong bias on this forum against MMA and sports martial arts. I don't understand it.

Is it the art they don't like, or just the people who LIKE the art that they dislike so much?

How can they not be impressed with Muay Thai, BJJ or Judo? I watch these arts and see good, clean technique, intelligent and thought provoking techniques. How can they so easily dismiss these arts and think their larping is so much better and so much more practical, just because they hate people who wear tap-out shirts?

.......................

[jubaji]

..............bump

[TTEscrima]

you are backing out of the discussion based on some perceived feud that seems to always exist in this forum.

I'm not backing out of anything, I'm simply not going to spend my time listening to you tell me that your couple years of wushu and boxing/Thai boxing allow you to rewrite and correct the classics of the TCMA's to suit your interpretations.

Thai boxing is also not a sport art, so please dont refer to it as one, it is estimated to be 3000 years old now and has ring competition within it, but it is not defined by this.

Huh, then I guess the matches with trained monkeys, transvestites and other assorted athletes competing in a ring under rules for money and trophies in Thailand were something other than Thai boxing. Who exactly runs a Thai boxing school that doesn't hold competitions in the ring?

Anyway, what i say is true regardless of any principal you stick to and its what i was taught when i used to do san shou as well. in fact we even did this in Wushu.

nevermind. guess this is going nowhere init.

You're using the lessons you learned in your arts to define ours then expecting us to practice Tai Chi, Baqua etc like Thai boxing and boxing, yeah bud that's going nowhere.

Range is simple, it's the distance at which a weapon becomes effective, period. When someone says a rifle has an effective range of a thousand yards that doesn't mean you can't use it at 50 feet but that's how you're treating punching vs elbow ranges, you go right ahead and think that way. If you're at kicking range you can't reach me with a punch without extra movement, if you're at punching range you can't reach me with an elbow without extra movement, if you're at elbow range of course the other weapons still reach, duh. However, to use the punch you said you were going to step back, well assuming you didn't back into the fight, that's a different the direction than the one you had built up momentum in. That momentum can be applied to the drop step and elbow with ease especially on someone who decided to step back to punch and is changing his momentum to a back step at the same time you're applying a drop step and elbow in the direction you already have momentum, that's TCMA Basic theory right from the classics.

[Ghost]

Once again no one in the TCMA threads know what they're talking about because a Sport art guy says so, all bow down to the Boxing,Thai boxing MMA, Gurus who comprehend everything about every arts power train and training doctrine.

you are backing out of the discussion based on some perceived feud that seems to always exist in this forum.

Thai boxing is also not a sport art, so please dont refer to it as one, it is estimated to be 3000 years old now and has ring competition within it, but it is not defined by this.

Anyway, what i say is true regardless of any principal you stick to and its what i was taught when i used to do san shou as well. in fact we even did this in Wushu.

nevermind. guess this is going nowhere init.

[TTEscrima]

but this has nothing to do with what martial art you do, its about bodymechanics. Im not trying to enforce boxing mechanics on you, or to force what the concept of range is on you.
I dont think anyone here actually understands what range is, you are taking the term too literally.
You dont move as such from punching to elbow range, you can still punch and kick in elbow range and sometimes its better to do so. Like as stated before, elbows without movement of the feet are not as effective as punching, they cant be. That just comes down to physics. Elbows and knees arent the be all and end all. They are just another tool. People get elbowed and remain standing.

What i am saying is as relevant to karate or chinese martial arts or any system.

Once again no one in the TCMA threads know what they're talking about because a Sport art guy says so, all bow down to the Boxing,Thai boxing MMA, Gurus who comprehend everything about every arts power train and training doctrine.

[kingoftheforest]

Banging your head on a wall.

but you dont understand boxing mechanics, we went over this before. Your interpretation of boxing bodymechanics is incorrect and everyone on here that does boxing says so.
Therefore you are wrong.

Besides, moving will add to power, it always does, makes no difference what the object is, be it a whip or a car or a ball or anything it has to have more power produced when moving, else it wouldnt move. Transfer that power to the target and you have more power.

Ghost I'm gonna go ahead and place you on ignore. You can continue to discuss boxing in a CMA thread if you want, but that will just make you look like a bigger ass than I ever could.

The rest of us will continue to discuss the basics of TCMA's . Since we have the classics as a guideline it shouldn't be to hard to stay on track.

[Ghost]

but this has nothing to do with what martial art you do, its about bodymechanics. Im not trying to enforce boxing mechanics on you, or to force what the concept of range is on you.
I dont think anyone here actually understands what range is, you are taking the term too literally.
You dont move as such from punching to elbow range, you can still punch and kick in elbow range and sometimes its better to do so. Like as stated before, elbows without movement of the feet are not as effective as punching, they cant be. That just comes down to physics. Elbows and knees arent the be all and end all. They are just another tool. People get elbowed and remain standing.

What i am saying is as relevant to karate or chinese martial arts or any system.

[TTEscrima]

When im talking about stepping in and out of range im talking about literal range, not switching between elbow and punching range.
My point is that if you land the blow when you step its not actually taking you any longer to make the move, though this would become noticeable if you are taking a really long step. which is fact.
Adding a step adds power, this isnt ineffecient. It will shorten the length of the fight to land a more powerful blow.

What you're talking about is how you do things in Thia boxing and boxing and using those arts to correct us in our discussions of the TCMA.

You need to stop being an asshole about trying to lord chinese martial arts over thaiboxing. im not doing the reverse so i dont see any need for you to do it to me.

Kindly scroll to the top of the page read the forum this is posted in, CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS, then read the original posters thread, its about the basics of the TCMA's that's traditional Chinese Martial Basics, now who is being an asshole lording their art over another again? But you don't do that right??

We having a discussion about bodymechanics and efficiency of motion.
Its always the same bloody arguement with you guys trying to lord it over ring based sports.

No, we were having a discussion about the TCMA basics, see the original post first 2 sentences.

Here are just some random thoughts I had on the basics of TCMA's.
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The basics for most TCMA's internal or external are relatively simple.

...And you came in and began telling us how you do it in your arts, you're like a Yankee who comes Down South and wants to tell us all how you do it up North better, my question to them is always "then why are you here if things are so great up north?" For you that translates to why aren't you talking in the Thai boxing, MMA and boxing forums if what you do is so great and what we do is so wrong, go participate in your arts forums, oh yeah there isn't any discussion about anything except pro fights or how MMA is better, damn thats all you say in here too.

[Ghost]

Actually physics has proven that a whipping motion creates more force.

You know the whip? The first thing humans made that broke the sound barrier.

We use the hips to generate a whipping motion as explained above. Your technique uses a pushing motion with the shoulder.

Whip creates more force than push. It's simple physics.

but you dont understand boxing mechanics, we went over this before. Your interpretation of boxing bodymechanics is incorrect and everyone on here that does boxing says so.
Therefore you are wrong.

Besides, moving will add to power, it always does, makes no difference what the object is, be it a whip or a car or a ball or anything it has to have more power produced when moving, else it wouldnt move. Transfer that power to the target and you have more power.

[kingoftheforest]

Hoisted by your own

Actually physics has proven that a whipping motion creates more force.

You know the whip? The first thing humans made that broke the sound barrier.

We use the hips to generate a whipping motion as explained above. Your technique uses a pushing motion with the shoulder.

Whip creates more force than push. It's simple physics.

CMA is irrelevant here, its about bodymechanics which is a case of physics. Which is the point im trying to argue.

you get me?

................
I do

[Ghost]

Literal range is the real range, punching range and elbow range dont exist as such, they are just concepts humans make up. Literal range is often somewhere inbetween.

You arent in punching range, then in elbow range then in grappling range. as if you could only be in 3 places, what if youare halfway between? literal range is where you actually are as opposed to any notion of punching range etc.

Stepping does add more power in the same way that it requires more power to move than it does to stay still. The faster you move the more power you require and the more of you that moves the more power that is required....and therefore generated.

You can always create more power by moving than you can by standing still alone.

The problem is that CMA is irrelevant here, its about bodymechanics which is a case of physics. Which is the point im trying to argue.
Moving produces more force. thats the nature of physics and no one really disagrees with that. Doing your punch moving with the same body mechanics ADDS to you doing it without moving.

you get me?