Krav Maga

[figgis]

Steve,

I still think your understanding of BJJ as an art (without any disrespect intended) could use some further increase... BJJ is not nearly as complex as you have made it out to be.

I don't think that you understand how simple techniques need to be to survive the degradation in motor skills that comes from a life or death situation, which was Steve's point. I'd say that few if any BJJ skills are simpler that shooting a handgun, but LEO drops from around 90% on shooting ranges to about 15% in real world fights.

In a 3 hour BJJ session you COULD successfully teach a women to escape a mounted position or potential rape position with ease

You believe this, yes, but I'm a afraid you don't prove it.

I will give a specific example. ---

2 weeks ago a new student came with a friend of his to train with me. His friend (Jared) has been training with me for about 3 weeks (5 or 6 1.5 hour classes). The new student (Blake) has a few years of martial arts experience in TKD and Boxing, and his stand up is honestly not bad, but he has no ground fighting experience. Jared (bear in mind who is still a complete novice in reality only 5 or 6 classes, and is about 20 pounds lighter then Blake)
consistently took Blake down controlled and submitted him that night.

Sorry - but a 20lbs weight difference between two guys is almost trivial. If you want to understand what a 120lb woman's situation is in fighting a 200lb guy, try imagining that 200lb guy fighting a 350lb steroid driven jail house monster. The male anatomy is much more biased towards upper body strength, and grappling is a strength-vs-strength game.

Besides underestimating the wall women have to overcome in grappling with a man I'd suggest that you're also assuming that a BJJ contest is much more like a real fight than it is. It's much harder to put an arm bar on someone who can break your fingers, bite, tear your ears off, gouge your eyes and punch you in the throat. This doesn't make BJJ completely invalid of course, but you should expect to see a big difference in real world efficacy.

As for women's self-defense, if one of your women students is caught by suprise and taken to the ground and pinned by a stronger, heavier opponent, will she be able to escape?

Using BJJ, almost certainly not, in my experience. Which includes have taken apart my jj class's senior student and instructor in my first grappling experience outside the playground - I was a lot stronger and it does make a difference.

I am an advocate of using BJJ as a part of a larger Self-Defense picture that includes many arts (some sport, some combative) to build a solid foundation for self-defense skills. I do not believe BJJ or Grappling as a whole is the end all of Martial Arts or self-defense, but I believe it's importance cannot be discounted or even diminished.

The question is, is BJJ ever relevant to a woman's sd needs? It's not quickly trained, strength and mass matter a lot, and it's sports-rule confined. If I was pinned down to the floor by a 350lb extra from Oz, I'd strike at his eyes and throat and maybe use those small joint techniques that are banned from BBJ because they do too much damage. Almost the definition of a good technique for all out sd is that it's banned from sports combat like BJJ. Techniques should also be VERY simple, target spots that don't make muscle to injure and which aren't better armoured on heavy opponents, be easy to chain together in a continuous assault, and be easily augmented without any big change in technique by any weapon handy like a small knife, nail file, etc. All techniques, strikes especially, should also work as much as possible upright, on the ground, or while sitting. I think Larry Jordan's "Dirty Dozen" book does a good job by these criteria.

My final argument against BJJ as a woman's sd technique is "Cops". I've never watched a full show but I've seen over and over again that it takes more than one BJJ trained LAPD officer to take down a strongly resisting opponent of the same size. This does not bode well for a woman who may fight the same opponent as the cop but who has only one quarter of his strength, a small fraction of his training, and none of his experience in coping with physically dangerous situations - while at the same time facing a much worse situation than most police officers ever have to.

Otoh, I'm sure that BJJ is a great sport, and a terrific tool in the armoury of a LEO or bouncer, although I'm not sure how it would compare to other grappling systems.

[piousmaximus]

I studied krav maga (kmaa) for a year and some, got up to level 3. I suppose all schools are different, but at my place, I dunno if I got much benefit beyond the choke/wristlock/bearhug releases, and of course the mindset of the relentless attack.

We sparred alot, but it was mostly kickboxing-type sparring...timed rounds, for an hour. Tiring? Yes. Preparing for a real fight? Not so much. Also, most striking training was done with bag/boxing gloves on. We did very little open hand striking, and basically nothing in way of conditioning our hands for real combat. Halfway thru level 2, my instructor got on a big groundwork kick, so we started doing a bit of that. But even then, it seemed more sport oriented, ie, 'go for the armbar, dude!'

Again, I'm sure schools vary (not to mention the various km associations), but from what I've experienced, the benefits reaped from 3 levels of training could have been easily condensed into a few months.

[km101]

exactly...the israeli military along with U.S. local and federal police agencies all claim it is proven in combat.

[MSand114]

isn't krav maga the art that israeli military forces learn? where they use strobe lights and stuff to train?

[km101]

I train in a school whose primary focus is in KM. Our instructor stresses strong to the point techniques to defend from any attack and then put distance between. The school makes an honest attempt to train as real as possible including multi attackers and weapons. The instructor also teaches and incourages cross training in Mauy Tai KB and Ju Jitsu and KAPAP. We have a few females in the classes and all would put up a very good fight if put in that situation. KM may focus alot with close handed stikes but it also places a lot of focus to knees, elbows, eyes and throat stikes. I do believe the instructors make the school. It doesn't matter what the style is without the right teacher it won't work

[szorn]

Steve,

I still think your understanding of BJJ as an art (without any disrespect intended) could use some further increase. I agree that you have to address more then one situation AND that BJJ will not help you deal with multiple attackers in a 3 hour session. However, BJJ is not nearly as complex as you have made it out to be. Most of the escapes and reversals in BJJ are simplistic in nature and easy to perform. Sure there are advanved transitions and advanced submissions, but those are not applicable for self-defense.

As I mentioned my understanding is pretty indepth without actually investing hours each week practicing the skills. However, as an "art" you are correct in that BJJ is not as complex as some others out there. But we are talking about hardcore self-defense here, not "art". In that regards BJJ is too complex.

In a 3 hour BJJ session you COULD successfully teach a women to escape a mounted position or potential rape position with ease, ESPECIALLY against an untrained opponent.

That's my point- youd COULD possibly teach a woman to defend against one or even 2 basic positions in that time but you could not teach her to defend against all of them. Also, you mention an 'untrained opponent', which is irrelevant. A rape or assault situation is not a sport match, in most cases it's a life-or-death struggle. Even if the attacker is not trained in the traditional sense does not make them any less vicious or dangerous. In fact they are often more dangerous due to the fact that they are unpredictable.

Does BJJ take a long time to master? Yes, it does, the art has depth and strategy that can take years to understand. Does BJJ allow a student to become proficient on the ground quickly, most certainly. I will give a specific example. ---

2 weeks ago a new student came with a friend of his to train with me. His friend (Jared) has been training with me for about 3 weeks (5 or 6 1.5 hour classes). The new student (Blake) has a few years of martial arts experience in TKD and Boxing, and his stand up is honestly not bad, but he has no ground fighting experience. Jared (bear in mind who is still a complete novice in reality only 5 or 6 classes, and is about 20 pounds lighter then Blake) consistently took Blake down controlled and submitted him that night. Also when we worked drills, Jared consistently (from a non-dominant position i.e. side-mount or mount) escaped or reversed, gained dominant position and controlled or submitted his opponent. ---

This story is one of many that are exactly the same, in fact I experienced the same thing roughly 2 months into my BJJ training when a new student came to class and it was like day and night in our ability on the ground.

Even if this new student was able to learn to do this in a matter of minutes that doesn't speak to the system or the teaching method as much as it does to the student's ability to learn and grasp the material quickly. One good student doesn't make a good system, especially when it comes to realistic self-defense. Also, as you mentioned this particular student had previous training and athletic ability. But again, I would ask how much realism was included in the training.? Did this include multiple attackers? Were weapons involved (obviously trainers)? Did the student attempt to evade or de-escalate prior to going to the ground with the attacker? Did the student attempt a realistic standing defense prior to going to the ground?

As for women's self-defense, if one of your women students is caught by suprise and taken to the ground and pinned by a stronger, heavier opponent, will she be able to escape?

I can't guarantee that any student, male or female will successfully utilize the skills that I give them. What I can guarantee is that I give them the best possible skills that are available for such situations. I can guarantee that the skills are easy to learn, easy to retain, and easy to use under stress. Also, I can guarantee that when the the training course is over that they have demonstrated that they can successfully defend themselves in most ground positions against larger, stronger, and more aggressive male attackers wearing protective gear. I also cover the various aspects of mental and emotional conditioning that are needed to successfully use these skills. However, like most things in life I can only empower them with the knowledge and show them how to enhance their natural skills, they have to make the conscious decision to apply waht I give them. I can also guarantee that I sleep very well at night knowing that I have given people realistic knowledge that may someday save their lives. I will never have to feel guilty if a student is severly injured or killed in an altercation because I chose to teach them material that was too complex or wasn't easily retainable under stress or that was based on "art" and "tradition" rather than survival.

On a similar note- I have had students successfully deal with these types of real situations without ever having to resort to physical tactics or allowing themselves to be taken to the ground. All from taking only one 3 hour class.

I am an advocate of using BJJ as a part of a larger Self-Defense picture that includes many arts (some sport, some combative) to build a solid foundation for self-defense skills. I do not believe BJJ or Grappling as a whole is the end all of Martial Arts or self-defense, but I believe it's importance cannot be discounted or even diminished.

I appreciate your posts and respect your knowledge on the self-defense subject. You also have your right to your own opinion on the topic. I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Jordan

As I mentioned before I do understand your objectives. However, I tend to look at this from the opposite perspective. We build self-defense skills by actually implementing natural and instinctive survival skills into the training first. We analyze real assaults and then utilize skills that helped other people survive and/or escape those situations. We essentially learn from other people's experiences and enhance those tactics that people use instinctively. Our foundation should be based on reality not "art". After the foundation is built if the student should choose to pursue the "art" or "tadition" then so be it. Atleast they will have a survival system to fall back on before they have mastered the "art" for defensive and combative applications. I remember when I first started training in the martial arts, I heard something that would later come to represent the norm in my martial arts education. My instructor said something along the lines of "you will have to relearn everything- how to stand, how to walk and how to move and it will take you approximately 2 years before you can use these skills to protect yourself". The question that immediately came to mind- what if an attacker doesn't want to wait two years before assaulting me? I think you get the picture. Another quote from one of my primary instructors comes to mind here as well- "fighting first, systems second".

I appreciate your posts and your opinion as well. The world wouldn't be a very good place if we all agreed on everything. However, the advice you gave to me can apply to you as well. Look into how real assaults occur and learn what takes place in the victims' mind and body. Interview assault victims and listen to what they have to say. Do some research into the modern self-defense systems being offered out there and see what kind of success rates they have. I am sure you will be surprised as to how many teach effective programs, even ground survival programs without the inclusion of traditional grappling skills.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

[SamuraiGuy]

Normally I've been always arguing that Krav Maga should be looked at seriously on these forums.

But in this situation, I'm going to say its not worth it.... and dont take this the wrong way, but its because your a woman.

Woman, in general dont have the same physical traits as men, thats obvious, so I wouldnt recommend it for small guys, or anyone unfit.

When I did Krav Maga, the tactics and stuff they used, like constant attacking, just wouldnt work for people with a sizeable physical disadvantage. For instance I was 17 when I did KM, I noticed the 14, 15 year old girls, raining down blows and what not. Excellent, IMO they would frikcing demolish any girl they ever fought. Now I'm really not trying to say that women are weak or anything, but I know had tey been raining down blows on me, I would have just grabbed them and throw them on the ground (if I was attacking them, I dont make it a point of fighting girls).

Krav Maga, is based on instincts, it will in a short time, make a person with a physical advantage, or even physical similarities, murder the average person in a street fight.

When your at a physical disadvantage, I think there are far far better ways to learn to defend yourself.

[grappler-jordan]

Steve,

I still think your understanding of BJJ as an art (without any disrespect intended) could use some further increase. I agree that you have to address more then one situation AND that BJJ will not help you deal with multiple attackers in a 3 hour session. However, BJJ is not nearly as complex as you have made it out to be. Most of the escapes and reversals in BJJ are simplistic in nature and easy to perform. Sure there are advanved transitions and advanced submissions, but those are not applicable for self-defense.

In a 3 hour BJJ session you COULD successfully teach a women to escape a mounted position or potential rape position with ease, ESPECIALLY against an untrained opponent. Does BJJ take a long time to master? Yes, it does, the art has depth and strategy that can take years to understand. Does BJJ allow a student to become proficient on the ground quickly, most certainly. I will give a specific example. ---

2 weeks ago a new student came with a friend of his to train with me. His friend (Jared) has been training with me for about 3 weeks (5 or 6 1.5 hour classes). The new student (Blake) has a few years of martial arts experience in TKD and Boxing, and his stand up is honestly not bad, but he has no ground fighting experience. Jared (bear in mind who is still a complete novice in reality only 5 or 6 classes, and is about 20 pounds lighter then Blake) consistently took Blake down controlled and submitted him that night. Also when we worked drills, Jared consistently (from a non-dominant position i.e. side-mount or mount) escaped or reversed, gained dominant position and controlled or submitted his opponent. ---

This story is one of many that are exactly the same, in fact I experienced the same thing roughly 2 months into my BJJ training when a new student came to class and it was like day and night in our ability on the ground.

BJJ is not a complete self-defense system and is most often trained as a sport not for self-defense. However, do not discount it's effectiveness or it's importance. I have trained multiple grappling arts and BJJ is by far the most effective I have found. As for women's self-defense, if one of your women students is caught by suprise and taken to the ground and pinned by a stronger, heavier opponent, will she be able to escape? I am an advocate of using BJJ as a part of a larger Self-Defense picture that includes many arts (some sport, some combative) to build a solid foundation for self-defense skills. I do not believe BJJ or Grappling as a whole is the end all of Martial Arts or self-defense, but I believe it's importance cannot be discounted or even diminished.

I appreciate your posts and respect your knowledge on the self-defense subject. You also have your right to your own opinion on the topic. I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Jordan

[szorn]

the point of learning grappling for self defense isnt to engage attackers in wrestling and try to demolish them mma style or bring them to the ground. this is the misconception people who dont know much about grappling have. all they know of grappling is what they have seen on spike tv. bjj has tons of escapes from every bad position you can think. bjj also has tons of techniques that can help you get back to your feet fast. you cant always avoid being grabbed or taken down, its a possibility and once it happens training in grappling will give you the best chance to get back to your feet and escaping. how is a woman going to get out from under a much bigger guy pinning her to the ground trying to rape her? well bjj may help dont you think? what do women need to be concerned about most? getting in streetfights? or getting sexually assaulted and overpowered by predators?? think about it, what art gives you the best odds of escaping someone who is attempting to physically overpower you and sexually assauly you against your will? bjj, judo, wrestling stand out to me.

pulling the guard isnt the only thing you can do with jiu jitsu.

in bjj you spend so much time doing drills were you start from a disadvantaged position and you must escape while your partner tries to finish you. for example, in bjj you do drills were your partner starts on top of you pinning you to the ground, or he he starts behind you and has your back and you have to escape while avoid being choked out etc. through constant drills like this people can learn how to effectively escape from being grabbed, pinned, or strangled using technique. this type of training inmop is most beneficial to women.

While I do agree with you on the objectives I still believe there are other easier and simpler ways of reaching them. I will admit I am not a BJJ practitioner but I have good friends who are and I periodically train with them. I have also researched a good portion of the BJJ instructional materials out there, most coming from the Gracie's themselves. Unfortunately, some people believe that BJJ is the only source of viable ground fighting out there. However, I can tell you that truly isn't the case. There have been warriors from every culture using ground tactics in real combat long before the Gracies were ever born.

The problem is that most semi-traditional martials arts, BJJ included, don't take into consideration the emotional and physiological effects that a real assault has on a person. They don't understand how the release of adrenaline will decrease cognitive thought processes. In other words the intended victim may not be thinking clearly enough under the stress of a real assault to remember or use all of those complex transitions that they were taught at the BJJ class. Practitioners of said systems don't understand that there is a high probability that motor-skill function will be decreased. Meaning that it will be physically difficult to use some of those complex skills, even if they can remember them. Also, most of these systems don't implement realistic training into the equation. I know that you are going to say that an adrenaline response does occur in the ring but research has shown that the adrenaline release during a sporting event is not the same as one that occurs during a potentially life-or-death altercation.

If all of that isn't bad enough, most of those systems, BJJ included, can not be learned and mastered in a short period of time. The fact that few people ever reach black belt level in BJJ is proof of this. Unfortunately, when someone needs realistic self-defense skills, they need skills that are easy to learn, easy to remember, easy to use under the stress of a real assault, and they need skills that can be learned in minimal time. Does BJJ fit that criteria? To be blunt, NO. Most martial arts require years of high rep practice to master to a point where they can be used for real self-defense and in some cases traditional techniques have even failed once mastered.

Here is a hypothetical situation- a woman comes to you for self-defense training. She tells you that she can see the future and that she has seen herself being brutally attacked, raped, and killed. This vision is to come true in exactly 2 days and she wants you to prepare her to save her own life. So, you have 2 days to physically and mentally prepare this woman to fight for her life. What do you teach her in under 2 days? Do you stick with the BJJ or give her something else that you know will increase her odds of survival? Honestly, I wouldn't bet this woman's life on BJJ.

Here is a good litmus test- take a woman with absolutely no martial arts, self-defense, or athletic skill and give her a 3 hour course on BJJ then pressure test her against single and multiple attackers wearing padded suits. Make the attacks as realistic and intense as possible while avoiding injuries. See how it turns. This is exactly what I do with my combatives-based program and I can tell you that every woman in the class walks away with the ability to succesfully deal with such a situation in just under 3 hours. How? Because the skills are based on natural and instinctive gross-motor movements, not complex unnatural traditional martial arts techniques. It takes into consideration the adrenal response and it's potentially negative effects on the human body. It teaches women how to embrace this physiological response and use it to their advantage. It teaches women to deal with the mental and emotional issues of a real and chaotic assault. It also covers those other components I mentioned previously that most martial arts systems don't even bother to address in their classes.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

[EmptyneSs]

I would say that I disagree with this. While it is true that women may have to worry about those things that you mention I wouldn't recommend that they attempt to wrestle, grapple, or fight for the dominant position while a 250 pound monster is attempting to sexually assault them. Not to mention that it's highly possible that they may find themselves facing multiple assailants. In such a situation ground grappling is not a tactic of choice. Women, like everyone else must be taught awareness, avoidance, & prevention followed by simple escape tactics as well as de-escalation tactics. Then they should be taught solid standing tactics to avoid going to the ground and extremely vicious ground tactics when all else fails. These tactics should be simple and direct and the objective should be to get back to a standing position as qucikly as possible while preventing the attacker(s) from continuing the assault.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

the point of learning grappling for self defense isnt to engage attackers in wrestling and try to demolish them mma style or bring them to the ground. this is the misconception people who dont know much about grappling have. all they know of grappling is what they have seen on spike tv. bjj has tons of escapes from every bad position you can think. bjj also has tons of techniques that can help you get back to your feet fast. you cant always avoid being grabbed or taken down, its a possibility and once it happens training in grappling will give you the best chance to get back to your feet and escaping. how is a woman going to get out from under a much bigger guy pinning her to the ground trying to rape her? well bjj may help dont you think? what do women need to be concerned about most? getting in streetfights? or getting sexually assaulted and overpowered by predators?? think about it, what art gives you the best odds of escaping someone who is attempting to physically overpower you and sexually assauly you against your will? bjj, judo, wrestling stand out to me.

pulling the guard isnt the only thing you can do with jiu jitsu.

in bjj you spend so much time doing drills were you start from a disadvantaged position and you must escape while your partner tries to finish you. for example, in bjj you do drills were your partner starts on top of you pinning you to the ground, or he he starts behind you and has your back and you have to escape while avoid being choked out etc. through constant drills like this people can learn how to effectively escape from being grabbed, pinned, or strangled using technique. this type of training inmop is most beneficial to women.

[szorn]

i think bjj is probobly the most practical martial art for womens self defense. women have to worry about things like being grabbed, held down, pinned to a wall, overpowered, mounted by another person etc due to the nature of the many sexual assaults that occur to women. and i think bjj adresses these issues pretty well. imagine if some guy tried to hold you down or grab you, you would know how to escape or mabye you could cripple him in the process. in bjj, you do tons of drills were you start with someone behind you, or someone on top of of you and you have to escape while your partner tries to finish you etc. and not only have i seen many women who can use bjj proficiently, i have been tapped out by some of them as well.

I would say that I disagree with this. While it is true that women may have to worry about those things that you mention I wouldn't recommend that they attempt to wrestle, grapple, or fight for the dominant position while a 250 pound monster is attempting to sexually assault them. Not to mention that it's highly possible that they may find themselves facing multiple assailants. In such a situation ground grappling is not a tactic of choice. Women, like everyone else must be taught awareness, avoidance, & prevention followed by simple escape tactics as well as de-escalation tactics. Then they should be taught solid standing tactics to avoid going to the ground and extremely vicious ground tactics when all else fails. These tactics should be simple and direct and the objective should be to get back to a standing position as qucikly as possible while preventing the attacker(s) from continuing the assault.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

[szorn]

There's a couple of schools near me that teach this style, but I know very little about it. How do women fare in these classes and how effective a style is it? Is Muay Thai or similar styles just as good or is this more practical for women and self defense?

For basic self-defense I wouldn't recommend Krav Maga or Muay Thai for women. These systems emphasize closed-fist strikes which can take months and years to perfect to the point where they can be used effectively for self-defense. I would recommend a good basic self-defense program that stresses natural open-hand techniques. Those that stress adrenal response training and use padded suits to conduct realistic self-defense scenarios are all pretty good. However, if this training is going to be for more than just self-defense I would recommend Muay Thai under a highly qulaified instructor if that is an option for you.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

[grappler-jordan]

That's a good point, it's rather like everyone claims to teach JKD but few people teach the real deal. I will make it a point to observe a class before I decide to join any school.

Exactly, good luck to you Laura...

[Laura]

That's a good point, it's rather like everyone claims to teach JKD but few people teach the real deal. I will make it a point to observe a class before I decide to join any school.

[grappler-jordan]

Let's not get into an effectiveness of BJJ debate on this thread... just try to answer the questions for Laura...

Laura, I have had 2 experiences with Krav Maga instructors, both of whom came to cross train at my previous school (before my instructor had a recent stroke). The first instructor who came in (and who I formed my opinion about Krav Maga on) was an all around strong martial artist who was very self-defense oriented, he kept his techniques reality based and was an excellent instructor. Overall I was impressed with his well rounded skillset and the philosophy and curriculum behind the art itself. My second encounter however, was not so pleasant. I will simply say that the instructor should have been leading a Cardio Kickboxing class at the local Gold's Gym not trying to sell himself as a Self-Defense Instructor. Not only did he not have any knowledge to provide but he struggled with proper basic punching, kicking and self-defense techniques...

The point I am getting at is that the Art itself is sound and effective from my experience, however, ensure that the school you are attending is going to provide you with the training and techniques that you are looking for...