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**armlok** · 04-12-2001, 07:50 PM

Hey that sounds like me

I believe in the theory that if you're in a fight it shouldn't last 2min., if it does your sparring, probing etc. Never been in a fight that lasted longer than a minute. I've never been strong in cardio. When the guys on the fatboy program lapped me on a 1/4 mile track in basic training, I was embarresed, but I got my revenge on the obstacle course.

But people do need a basic level of fitness and muscular strength to fight effectively. Athletic training will help improve fighting skill. Not everyone want to be a jock. As for the age thing. Hell, I'm 32 and half crippled and still manage to hump mountains in search of game animals, spar and throw my dummy. If he doesn't have any injuries, but he's a slug and can't do 50 pushups or run a mile, then he's just lazy. But DON'T call him lazy. He might Hock Fu you, then you'd be all Hocked-up.
Don't make fun of Tai Chi, I heard it was hard work and I watched them Aikido guys train, I got tired just watching. Burton does bounce alot, thats probably why he had to get knee surgery

Time to run and hide

**WTG** · 04-12-2001, 08:27 PM

LOL!

Right on Armlock!

I train and teach two other arts which have a traceable history back over 1000 years in Japan. Their mindset and method is VERY different than JKD or NHB.

I describe JKD/NHB ect... as dueling arts, where as arts like jujutsu/Ninpo/silat ect are more self protection arts.
I would like to get more into this if we get some replies.

The one thing I dislike about JKD is the kickboxing, it's fun and all and very helpful, but why practice punching to the head with a fist when I'll never do that, I'll use palms ect.. I'm not going to throw kickboxing combo's either!

I remember years ago Larry Hartsell telling me that there are too many chances in kicking and punching range and that it is safer to get in close and "FEEL" what is going on.

If I was to use JKD in a fight, I would favor clinch range with headbutts, knees elbows eye rips, trows ect... Locks controls...

I have allot more to say on this and I think it can be a good discussion, so I'll see if we get some more replies

Best,

-Rick

**armlok** · 04-12-2001, 10:31 PM

Yeah I know how you feel about the kickboxing, I punch like a girl or at least a real mean girl. As for kicks I can't get my leg higher than my hip

Everyone has their prefered way of fighting. Thank god Burton lets me do things my own way.
Now if I only had Jims flexability and energy, Burtons power and knowledge and my base, I would be near invincible

**Burton** · 04-13-2001, 04:14 AM

Good discussion. We were just talking on Tuesday about how the kickboxing training is primarily for seeing lots and lots of punches, kicks, etc. come at you, much like batting practice. Real fights usually start much closer, thus lots of clinch and ground. We have been doing drills that are more street oriented, as it is easy to fall into a "duelling" sport mentality. These drills snap people out of that mindset in a hurry! As for techniques that just step in and finish the opponent, we all know that anyone can look deadly when there is little or no resistance. I have never seen anyone simply handle a real attack with some deadly technique. It takes work, and usually some power.
About the athletic thing. I am 39, which is very, very young compared to some people I know (Dan Inosanto as one example) who train hard in their 60's. My dad just turned 66, and he plays in a basketball league against high schoolers. Not genetics, just training. Anyone can get in shape, but if they are looking for a simple, no sweat solution, I suggest they find another hobby.
I liked your solution of sparring in all the ranges. It is just sparring, but this type of training reveals many truths. Enjoy!

**Jim McRae** · 04-13-2001, 06:13 AM

(Warning, tirade approaching...)

As Jason Korol, my first JKD teacher, was fond of repeating, a person has three factors that determine his overall ability as a fighter: attributes, strategy, and techniques. An individual who is lacking in one of these areas had better be able to make up for it with the other two or he's going to be spending a few months in traction. Helio Gracie is getting on in years, and his attributes (strength, endurance, etc.) are not what they used to be. However, he has mastered the strategy and techniques of Gracie Jiujitsu to such an extent that he can make up for this unavoidable attribute deficit. However, to paraphrase Jigoro Kano, if two martial artists are identical in skill level and one of them is in better shape, the fitter of the two will win in competition. All it takes for any human being on the planet to be stronger, more flexible, faster, in better cardiovascular condition, etc., is for that person to TRAIN. Helio Gracie's decline of attributes is due to the aging process (which, regrettably, is unavoidable). For many martial artists, a decline in attributes can be attributed to nothing more than stuffing L'il Debbies down their throats and drinking cheap beer. This is not to say that every JKD man should have a Bruce-Lee-like physique, but to paraphrase Sifu Lee, if you're not in shape, you have no business training in the martial arts. If someone told me that they wanted to learn effective self defense that did not require them to get in shape, I would tell them to either (1) buy a gun (2) adopt a pitbull or (3) get a membership to a gym and loose the love-handles, because if you get out of breath ripping open a bag of pork-rinds, you'll probably have a heart attack trying to defend yourself. And age is no excuse either: my father is almost 55 years old and he runs 7 miles every morning, works out with weights every day, and has a 6 percent body fat. As he gets older, he will not be able to push himself as hard as he has in the past, but what is important is that he will continue to push himself to his own personal limit, whatever that limit may be. Granted, every person had his own limit to how strong, fast, flexible, etc he can be, but no one's limit in any of these areas tops of at "fat, stiff, and wheezy." The goal of Jeet Kune Do is to have no limitation as limitation. If an individual is not working his absolute hardest to perfect himself in his attributes, strategies, and techniques, then that individual is creating limitations for himself where none should exist.

Take care and train hard,
Jim McRae

Note: Bring this up whenever someone uses Morehei Ueshiba as an example of "a frail but powerful man." Ueshiba in his youth was barely 5 feet tall and weighed 180 pounds of raw muscle. If you watch the old films of him in his army days, he used to beat the stuffing out of his ukes. His Aikido only became "soft" as he began to age and needed to equalize the attribute disparity by modifying his technique.

**WTG** · 04-13-2001, 12:24 PM

Great Replies!

Hi guys,

so far so good!

First, my reply to him about the foot work was that, no matter what martial art you do, you MUST have mobility!
You cannot just stand in one place and expect to defend yourself. That's just for movie stars turned Rinpoche's!

I told him that actually, the Jun Fan footwork along with the kali foot work was some of the most direct simple and easy to do mobility you can do! Sifu Burton was moving at a certain speed, some move faster some move slower, but you MUST move, heck even in the classical Japanese systems I study, the stress Tai Sabaki or MOVING! You MUST move!

Regarding Kick boxing training, I agree Sifu, it's like batting practice, it doesn't mean as a JKD man or woman we MUST kickbox in a fight although we are free to do so, but, if you have not trained your eye to see, you will be on the ground in la la land!

And, it is not like just training kickboxing is enough either, for example in you don't train against the shoot, you'll bite it! Point is, you must be used to all kinds of possible attacks (of course practice mostly against the most common ones...)

And resistance! This is a HUGE factor in training! You simply MUST be able to flow against resistance, and you can only do that by training against a resisting partner.

Last point for now, too many people "talk martial arts" or show their techniques in casual situations to non fighters and use that as proof of the simple no effort art.

What I mean is, I have seen so many times, people sitting around talking relaxed, and some one says, heck, if someone grabs me, he Joe, grab me... So Joe gets up ok... Grabs slowly and then the other guy pokes him in the neck, Joe grabs his neck, HEY!!

Other guy says see! Easy, real martial arts take no effort! Of course, if "Joe" seen this guy running a key over his new Mustang, and went to grab him, do you really think a poke in the neck will stop Joe from slamming the guy on the ground? Me neither!

SO yeah, resistance, movement, and line familiarization. But also balance, so we don't become sparring minded, drills also from surprise attacks, and scenario training.

Oh yeah and don't forget to have fun!

Best!

-Rick

**WTG** · 04-13-2001, 12:37 PM

BTW...

I forgot to say,

the guy I wrote about, JC, is acually in great shape MUCH better shape than I! He runs four miles a day
and I have had him on a weight lifing program for five months, and he does Yoga! LOL!

BUT, JC reads Black Belt! LOL! And is always coming in the Gym talking about, "hey" what do you think of this Krav Maga? What About this Matt Fuerry? Maybe I should drop weights and do Hindu Squats! That is where this Hock-Fu came from! So fresh off a Hock tape
talking about non-athletic martial arts ect... he comes in with his questions.

He said, on Hock's tape, he showed this, (he palm striked me under the chin twisted my head into a bulldog takedown) He said, that is way easier than trying to jump around and kickbox... I said, yeah, good concept,where the head goes, the body follows, but, how will you enter? You need timing.

He didn't get it, so we put on Macho gear and I said, ok, do the bulldog! He could not, and I hooked him hard enough to spin him 360! He sat down, and said... I see..
Lets just do drills ok? LOL!

He's a good guy, but trains once a week, misses about four months a year, a bit of a strange bird, but nice just the same...

Later,

-Rick

**Burton** · 04-13-2001, 02:08 PM

I do think that too much kickboxing is like doing lots of non-functional drills "just for fun". Even if the students know that it isn't the way a real fight is probably going to work out, somehow people start to believe at some level that it WILL be just like that. I am not against people learning traditional systems, as long as they spar and train realistically. Otherwise, they fall back into the human nature described by Dostoevsky:

"Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic."

It is natural, and sometimes, as in fighting, it is best to avoid our instinctual behaviors.

**Jim McRae** · 04-13-2001, 05:11 PM

Before I ever got involved with JKD, I studied Aikido for a number of years. Aikido, as it is practiced in 99% of the dojos around the world, is completely detached from reality. Most Aikido techniques are impractical responses to unrealistic attacks made with little energy by opponents who offer no resistance. In that kind of environment, you can make any technique work. This is really a shame, because if you see how Aikido's founder practiced the art — throwing eye gouges, groin shots, elbows, etc., to set up his techniques — you get the feeling it actually worked before it got watered down.

I think there are several reasons that people are drawn to unrealistic martial arts:
(1) Laziness: why spend lots of time, effort, and money sweating and bleeding in a JKD gym when you can "learn instantly deadly techniques in just four weeks" from the guy down the street. Most Americans want a quick fix — look at the way they handle weight loss. It's a simple matter of diet and exercise yet everyone thinks they can either do the diet without the exercise or just pop a pill and magically burn away the fat. John Dewey said "character is the interpenetration of habits" (Human Nature and Conduct 38). How can a person hope to ever develop themselves to a high degree without putting in the time to ingrain the proper habits? Habits are not just acquired; they must be learned and practiced repeatedly to attain any level of real skill in the martial arts (or any art).
(2) TV and Films: Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love watching martial arts and action movies. However, we all know that the kind of martial arts techniques that work on the street are the least interesting to watch on the silver screen. If Bruce Lee had fought in his films the way he did in reality, people would have gone to sleep in the theaters (the fights would have been over in 5 seconds, would have been graphically violent, and Bruce would have moved so fast that the audience couldn't see a thing). When I used to teach Aikido, a lot of people that would come to me for lessons did so because they "loved them Segal flicks." People watch movies and TV and get the idea of the Super-Fighter, who can take on 25 guys at once, knock them all out with flying kicks to the head, and not get a scratch on him. They are often disappointed to find out that those techniques don't work in reality and that no martial artist is untouchable.
(3) The Chi Myth: To paraphrase Sifu Lee, many martial artists spend too much time developing a spiritual energy that will replace, rather than enhance, their physical skills. People that buy in to the Chi/Ki myth are usually the first to scoff at more physical martial arts like JKD. This problem is exacerbated by all the guys that give demonstrations where they knock their brainwashed students over with blasts of raw chi energy.
(4) Untested Theories: As Burton demonstrates with his excellent Dostoevsky quote, human beings have a tendency to rationalize and objectify reality to the point where their understanding of everyday experience is obscured by their feelings of how it "ought to be." Many martial artists get too caught up in the theoretical aspect of the martial arts and never test their theories against real, resisting, competent opponents. This is what Berdyaev means when he says "objective and impersonal modes of thought are the greatest obstacle to the individual's emergence from his self-confinement."

There are probably other explanations, but my fingers are getting tired...

Take care and train hard,
Jim McRae

**WTG** · 04-13-2001, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Jim McRae
This is what Berdyaev means when he says "objective and impersonal modes of thought are the greatest obstacle to the individual's emergence from his self-confinement."

There are probably other explanations, but my fingers are getting tired...

Take care and train hard,
Jim McRae

Thanks Jim!

Ya know, when I go to training conventions held by these traditional arts I teach, I feel like a shark in a pond of gold fish!

When I tell these people that yes, their art contains truth and function, BUT you must find out for yourself by training hard against someone fighting back, I become the bad guy...

They hold the belief that if what I say was true, that the leaders of the style would be practicing that way and teaching that way. It's sad really...

I would never have developed the eye to see what was usable and what was not in these traditional arts had I not trained hard. (i.e JKDU style!! GO TEAM! LOL!)

I personally enjoy investagating certain classical arts and asking myself, what works and what does not, and WHY are there aspects in these "warrior" arts that warriors would never do? Where did they come from?

I have used many aspects and techniques from Ninpo and classical jujutsu in JKD sparring, just as I use many JKD things to enhance my Ninpo and jujutsu.

Really, "style" is the trap. I feel that "styles" are really experiences, collected experiences throughout years.
So by studying the style, you benifit from experiences you personally never had.

For example, I have never been in a civil war fighting with spears and swords, but others have and have written that knowledge down for future generations in scrolls and densho.

I have never fought in the UFC, But Randy Couture has, so by training with him, I can gain some insight. But all of this, is just part of the whole, it is about what YOU can do. And THAT, you find out by training realistically!

Thoughts?

-Rick

**armlok** · 04-13-2001, 06:57 PM

We discussed this topic last night in the cripple/infectious corner

The techniques and principles of most traditional/classical styles are viable, it's the method of training that so hosed up. Even methods touted as H2H/combatives/quick kill/ hock-fu are usually good. The problem is they train in a partner drill fasion that is sooo unrealistic. Such methods need to be excecuted after an entry and fired with less accuracy, more power and in a continious barrage.
How do we get the entry??? SPARRING! To develop the timing, balance, etc they need to work in a realistic manner. Then, application of HKE, throws, gouges, etc can be more effectively applied.
One thing to add to your comment Rick on "styles". PRINCIPLES Almost all styles are based on underlying principles.
Judo- push when pulled, pull when pushed
Aikido- blend w/ energy
Karate- block and counterattack
Hock-fu, etc- kill, kill, kill
Take their priciples and train realistically and you have a method of fighting or style that is viable. Learn the principles and train at half speed or w/ cooperative opponent and you have KRAP.

**WTG** · 04-13-2001, 08:41 PM

Thanks Armlok!

Good points.

What is the hardest thing about dealing with a kickboxer? For me it is not getting faked out or lost in a barrage attack. So how do I train that? I do drills to develop my eye sensitivity, to be able to read angles and fakes ect...

It is often said, any art can look good if you know what attack is coming. So train your eye to see quick and well.

Next problem is resistence, so drill to develop the ability to flow with resistence.

Some techniques are not as well designed in regards to structure as others, but for the most part, to quote Burton "if an art has survived over the years, it must have been working over the years" (Burton of the past, Sifu may not aggree with that now I don't know)

I believe the principals of TRUE arts, those that survived from pre WWII are VERY valid, but, and this is a BIG but,
those founders had real fighting and killing experience, so they could show the principals in a useable way. Modern day folks with no real experience in fighting have all they need, but they can't see it. Like they have a book with all the answers, but it is written in a language they can't read.

So, I look at training as in JKDU as a way of me getting a certain amount of experience, this is why I see what others in the same art can't.

Good discussion!

-Rick

**Burton** · 04-13-2001, 11:16 PM

It is all about experience. "JKD" is about the individual, thus the individual must develop him or herself through realistic, progressive resistance training. Without viable experience, the chances of performing under pressure are indeed slim.

**WTG** · 04-14-2001, 04:10 PM

Hi Sifu,

first of all, I love the term "progressive resistance training" It really sums it up!

You also bring up a good point about the *INDIVIDUAL*
and his personal experience, this is so important.

Thanks,

-Rick

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But I'm too old! What is this aerobics???

But I'm too old! What is this aerobics???

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