The reliability of O.C. spray

[Jim McRae]

What does everyone think about the reliability of O.C. (oleoresin capsicum or "pepper") spray for self-defense applications? Does anyone have any personal experience using O.C. on an attacker? If, so, what were the effects and was the attacker on drugs at the time?

Arguments for using O.C.:
(1) It is humane (read "humane" as "the liberal, criminal-living jury won't automatically write you off as a psychopath for using it")
(2) It has an instantaneous, crippling effect upon the attacker
(3) Its effectiveness does not depend upon pain-tolerance since it acts upon mucus-membranes
(4) Its effective range allows it to be used against taller opponents or against opponents wielding weapons.
(5) Its effectiveness is not dependent upon size or strength.

Arguments against O.C.
(1) It can be withstood by individuals with a high tolerance to capsicum. Some people of Mexican, Thai, Indian, etc. descent can eat habañero peppers straight. Habañeros have, on average, about 500,000 scoville units of heat to them (the scoville unit, SU, measures the amount of capsicum in a pepper). O.C. sprays usually have between one and five million SU (the most common are around the one million mark). Now if a guy can suck down habañeros without batting an eye, he might not be greatly affected by a spray that is only twice as hot. (My argument against this is that I can eat habañero peppers without a problem, but if you have ever accidentally rubbed your eye after chopping some, you know that capsicum on the tongue and capsicum in the eye are two totally different things).
(2) Drugs render it useless. Some argue that, despite the whole "O.C. acts on mucus-membranes argument", a guy on crystal-meth will just ignore the pain.
(3) Wind can blow it back in your face
(4) It is useless indoors (unless you are planning to clear the room)
(5) You don't want to grapple with someone coated in O.C.

Looking forward to your responses,
Jim McRae

[Burton]

I haven't OC'd anyone, but I have felt miniscule amounts on 3 occasions and it is bad! You pointed out the problems, and I think that we must use discretion to determine which individual to spray, and in what environment to do so. I know of many success stories from police friends, along with some of those horror stories where the guy is not affected. It can definitely be a good deterrent, but we know that many altercations happen at close range, and you will end up spraying yourself.
Maybe we should use progressive resistance and spray ourselves a little each day until we are impervious to OC. Better yet, let's use Shelton for the experiment!

[armlok]

Actually, I've thought about that several times for conditioning We can slowly increase the amount of OC and direction of the blast until we can handle full face shot. You'll still be affected but you won't have that panicked reation. Maybe Jim and I will start rolling and Burton can stand around and fire a burst around us. I've been exposed to chemical mace and the dreaded "gas chamber" several times. Let's go down to the park and work on it
My friends have stories of both pos and neg results w/ OC. As long as you have skills to back up OC you'll be better off.

[Gerry]

OC sprays

I believe that OC sprays can be very effective but of course like anything else, might not work on every body all the time. The biggest problem with these sprays is hitting the primary target area which is the eyes. I used to work in a detention center and have sprayed about 30 people. If they new it was coming, I had a very difficult time actually getting it into there eyes so I started relying on the element of suprise. Also, I think that it is a good idea to occasionally do exposure drills. I remember the last time I went through Defense Technologies instructors class we had to be sprayed, then run to a shield and do some elbow strikes, then to another and do some knees, then another and hit a pad with a foam baton, then finally defend ourselves against two guys whacking us in the head with some kicking shields. The idea behind the drill was to show guys that just because you are hit with the spray, you can still fight.

Gerry Barone

[Jim McRae]

Thanks for your input, Gerry — it is good to hear from someone who has had a lot of real-world experience.

I have never had to spray anyone in a fight, but I operate under the assumption that if I do spray someone, it will not have an immediate effect on them (if it has any effect at all). I carry an ASP Defender O.C. spray, which is essentially a small aluminum baton that sprays O.C. out the bottom. I like it because it is small and concealable (tucked in waistband at right hip), it is deployed in a JKD by-jong position (it sprays out the "icepick" side, so you can shoot it with your hands in a boxer's guard), and it can be used as a yawara stick (fist-load/striking implement/grappling aid). I practice drawing it every day, and I can go from hands up to draw/safety-off/spraying in about a second with either hand. I figure if a guy doesn't go down from the O.C., I will use JKD hand-to-hand techniques, employing the baton as a strking implement (or go for one of my knives, if necessary). Like my first JKD teacher used to say, pain-tolerance is largely a function of motivation: if a guy is just hassling you (typical redneck picking a fight), O.C. might be painful enough to take him out; if he is hell-bent on killing you, you will undoubtably need to resort to something more effective.

Many thanks,
Jim McRae

[Gerry]

Right on Jim. I think the ASP defender is about the best OC canister out there. And as you said, it is very versatile.

[Kirves]

I have used O.C. a few times (I have always used it when facing a knife wielding attacker) as a security guard. For me it has worked each time, except when I missed the target.

The beauty of O.C. compared to C.S. or C.N. is that if it works, it does so immediately (well, the second he opens his eyes). It has several listed effects but it's usefulness is mainly based on the fact that it triggers an involuntary eye-closing reflex. Because the reflex is an autonomous one, being drugged or drunk doesn't help, it works anyway (I have heard the doctors' explanation of why it works even on drugged people). But I have also heard that there are some rare individuals who don't respond to it, not because they have trained it, but because they just happen to have that "one in a million" body which doesn't respond to it.

O.C. burns, hurts and stings a bit but that is a side effect, the main benefit is that it forces the opponent to keep his eyes closed and that is a huge advantage. I haven't heard of any real-life incidents here where it failed when target (eyes) have been hit. Accuracy is an issue, you need to practice (and I mean practise the surprise draw or hidden draw, you don't want him to know he's going to be sprayed). So, those who think O.C. is painful are IMO missing the point. The purpose of O.C. is to trigger the autonomous eyes-closing reflex. Actually it makes the eyelid muscles contract forcibly and keep them contracted for as long as the agent is present. This will give you ample time to restrain him safely.

Also, the foam spray is useless. Fogger works, but I prefer streamer as it works on any weather, doesn't blow back into your face, and has the longest range. Foam was first considered good as it only works on the individual it hits and noone else, but then these criminals started shielding their faces with their palms and then throwing the foam back, so foam is no longer in use here.

[Burton]

As Jim pointed out, if you choose to carry O.C., you had better practice getting to it under stress. Like a concealed weapon, it does you no good if you can't draw it.

[Jim McRae]

Thanks for the input, Kirves. It's always good to hear from someone who has used the stuff on resisting opponents.

Amen to Burton. Most people that carry weapons for self-defense end up never using them because they (1) forget they are carrying them or (2) they fumble the draw and have to resort to hand-to-hand techniques. Whenever I meet someone who carries a knife for self-defense, I ask (as politely as possible) if they would demonstrate a quick-draw. Very few can get the knife out without searching for it, fumbling it out of the pocket, and then trying not to drop it as they open it. O.C. is usually worse (since most people carry the "key-ring" model with the safety you have to rotate around inside the leather scabbard). With knife or O.C., I can go from a de-escalation stance to a draw and fire in about a second (I'm trying to do it spinning a plate on my nose, but no luck so far).

As an aside, apparently the bouncers that started the stampede in that Chicago nightclub that killed two dozen people are not familiar with my counter-argument #4 above (pepper spraying is an outdoor-only activity).

Take care and train hard,
Jim

[Kirves]

About trying to train to withstand O.C.; It is easy to train to with stand tear gas, but what I have understood, O.C. isn't that easy to train for. Your body creates an "immunity" of sorts (not in a medical sense!) to tear gas, but not to O.C. so in that way you cannot train yourself to become "immune" to the effects of O.C. like you can do with tear gas. But training to get experience of O.C. isn't all in vain - a lot of the effect O.C. has comes also from the panic of the individual who got sprayed. If they aren't accustomed to the feeling, they often panic and get really scared. If you have the "been there, done that, nothing special" experience of O.C. you won't get panicked and you retain some of your functionality. Of course, a person who got O.C. in his eyes is at disadvantage as he can't keep his eyes open (I don't think you can train to keep them open for more than a blink) but he can still resist. He can draw a gun and start shooting everywhere, he can wrestle you down, he can try all kinds of things when he isn't panicking.

[Jim McRae]

I used to have a JKD student who worked as a prison guard. He said that part of his training involved the "O.C. gauntlet," which consisted of five stations:

(1) Get sprayed in the eyes with O.C.
(2) Run 10 yards to a trainer holding focus mitts. Throw a set number of jab-cross combos (I think it was around 20 or thirty punches total).
(3) Run 10 yards to another trainer holding a kicking shield. Throw a set of thai kicks.
(4) Run 10 yards to another trainer holding a pair of thai pads. Throw a set of knees and elbows.
(5) Run another 10 yards to a detox station to get the O.C. out of your eyes (or at least some of the O.C. spray).

I may have missed some of the stuff involved in this gauntlet, but it has been a couple of years since I was told about it. My student said the point of the drill was twofold: (1) as Kirves says, it gives you the "been there, done that" mentality with O.C. so you don't freak out if you get sprayed with your own weapon, and (2) it lets you know that someone can still fight fairly well when they've been sprayed, so so you won't count on the spray taking an assailant totally out of the game.

Take care and train hard,
Jim

[Ms. J]

OC Spray

It seems i am responding to an older set of posts on oc spray reliability. Therefore, instead of posting what i can post i am going to see if anyone is still interested in what i might have to offer.

I spent 5 years doing some very extensive research on OC sprays and building a level one Program for civilians that purchase these on the market spays. This research is broken down in a book that i have almost finished. The book will be out as soon as the last 2 teachers i have highlighted and quoted get around to making the changes and giving there final approvals on there sections. This might take some time still though as i am cannot pursue them for a few more months. (Pursue means hunting them down and begging)

If anyone is still interested in this subject, i am willing to post the pages and outline for the FATE Organizations Level One OC Spray section of TAO SDA here for reading. The content has been copy written though and will come with stipulations to how it can be transferred and used by others if i do post it. This book is being written to sell for fundraising and as a companion to a program that my organization teaches to victims of violent crime. The money made from this project will be used to teach them, market the program and to train teachers to teach it to victims on a national level.

Ms. J bows deeply

https://www.FATE-Organization.com

[Jim McRae]

Ms. J:

I think we would all benefit from your expertise. Please post the information you mentioned.

Many thanks,
Jim McRae

[Ms. J]

FATE Orgs level one OC introduction

Jim,

I am trying to get my sorry but on the road to help this old woman who was stranded out in the woods and has been neglected and abused by her famleys. I will be out of town for the next week or so. However, when i get back i will post the pages here for everyones reading. Though it might be too big to post here if that’s the case I will code a few quick pages on line, hide them on my site for everyone here to view, and just post the address.

Wish me luck, tis an ugly nasty job i face this week...


Ms. J. bows deeply

[bobhandegan]

I am An O/C instructor

Hi, I am the O/C instructor for the Tazewell Co. Sheriff's Dept. And also instuct in Defensive Tactics. I require all students who arer to be certified in the use of O/C to take a direct spray in the eyes,mouth and face. They are then required to wait 10 seconds as thye O/C settles and then they must fight off an attacker that is holding a body shield. This has a two fold purpose.

1. It enables an officer to feel the first hand effects of O/C and
have the mental capabilities to fight through it should he
happen to be sprayed while using it himself on an attacker.

2. It gives an officer a better understanding of what to expect
for an attacker that has been sprayed and how to treat
him/her afterwards.

O/C affects EVERYONE it is applied to. the problem is this. Much like all of us who train for fighting, although no one is immune. People can build a tolerance to O/C. Like those of us who spar all the time, the punches don't fail to hurt. Our body's and our minds have felt it so many times it is no longer a shock to our system and it allows us to endure more.
If this is the case When using O/C and you see it is not bringing the attacker down you should disengage and seek an alternate use of COntrol. Thanks Bob handegan