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**Culminate** · 08-15-2004, 09:01 AM

I would vary the point of contact to make it more relevant to bare knuckle fighting i.e. back fist instead of hammer fist (you can stun your opponent if you strike his nose).

Develop combinations such as:

Back fist (left hand) counter with right hook, then back fist (right hand) counter with left hook...

I would just use my imagination to come up with more combos to work on weaknesses and focus on things like i.e. spacing, relaxation, bring your guard up with the non committed hand, weight distribution, stance etc.

**gabbah** · 08-16-2004, 09:04 AM

Thanks for the tips!
When you hit with jab cross jab cross, I guess you can't go at it with the same speed as when standing close and using only hammerfists?
Also - without having tried it yet - isn't it very hard to work the cross in the same line as the jab? Doesn't the bag move a bit to thr right for the jab, and a bit to the left with the cross?
When I use hammerfists and hit the bag with an angle just a little off the straight line, the error very easily increases with each blow, until i slow down and "start over". If I keep the same speed it's VERY hit the bag back into the straight line back and forth.
I imagine I would have even more difficulties if I use true jabs and crosses, and it should be impossible to reach the same speeds (that is ok though).

When you throw a hook after jab cross, isn't the distance wrong? Do you have time to move your upper body closer and then back again to throw the hook?

**gabbah** · 08-16-2004, 10:10 AM

I don't think you always need to quote, only if you think there's a chance the readers would be confused otherwise!

"And to address speed/intensity.... "
yes mike, that makes perfect sense to me, and that's EXACTLY how I'm working the bag right now with hammerfists, your description was very accurate. Even the sounds hehe.. I have found that the sound is a main tool for finding the right rythm, so it's not just visual.

Now, I still find it hard to belive I can reach the same speed with "jab cross and moving body" as I can with "static, hammerfists only"

Can you do that??
I mean, with hammerfist you can make the bag move so fast it's just a blur. And even if you hit every third bounce only, is it really possible to move you body that fast?
But even if I can't, I will still work hard on this drill for sure, to improve my body movement. Thanks again.

**gabbah** · 08-16-2004, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Mike Brewer

So long as you can throw the jabs and crosses that fast, then yes, you can. It's just that it's tougher to get the hang of, and not many people think to try it that way. Now, remember, the speedbag isn't a "power tool" so you're hitting lighter/faster than on, say, a heavy bag. That helps too. The cool thing I've found is that if you sort out the punching , the footwork and body mechanics sort of come along naturally.

Ahhh.. cool! When I think about it, the speed bag helped develop a snap in the hammerfist.. can't wait to make the same gain in jab and cross, as that's what really matters. The same goes for being relaxed when you punch.. At first I used a lot of shoulder muscle.. but to hit fast you need to stay relax and use your whole body to create the right snap!
I have been trying to hit the heavy bag in a relaxed, energy conserving manner. It would be very cool if the speed bag can force me to learn that

Also, I would actually be able to point to a specific skill I have leared from the speed bag, to tell those that have a smirk on their faces when talking about my speed bag training

"The cool thing I've found is that if you sort out the punching , the footwork and body mechanics sort of come along naturally."
Small "secrets" like this is exactly what I want to read about! My techers don't tell me this, or they simply don't know it. It makes me so much more motivated!

Originally posted by Mike Brewer

It's all about progressive resistance/stress. Start easy and make things tougher as you get better.

yeah I always train by that principle.
Unfortunately I can't control the air in the bag, becuase it's shared by other people in my gym.

BTW, you don't happen to have a clip that shows speed bag work with jab cross and such? I learn a lot from watching others.

One thing I have thought about, is that all striking/kicks techniques can be viewed as a whip motion performed by the body. In fact, that's the snap - the end of the whip motion. Isn't it so? (getting off topic here I know hehe)

**gabbah** · 08-16-2004, 11:22 AM

Alright, thanks man. Let me know about the video if you get it later.

**BrotherD** · 08-17-2004, 01:48 PM

Speed kills

It really is a shame that the more we advance a concept
the more we loose Its intended meaning.
The function of the speed bag is sorely misunderstood.

Mike I see you have very good practices although I would disagree with the rhythm part. But that’s my opinion not trying to flip this thread like the last one.

This is the Boxing forum so this is where a discussion about the speed bag should be.
So let me introduce two things to this discussion
1. Boxing wasn’t always a sport, and its training method didn’t always relate to the hand. For those of you who fence or practice other related weapons arts you may see a correlation or maybe not.
2. There are other forms of fighting from which Boxing (old style) derived. That is not currently taught in the sport. But some of the old gym rats can teach you a thing or two about those days and the sweet science of their time. love those hammer fist and the hand roll.

Boxing today is very offensive leaving very little of the old methods in tact. The speed bag in short teaches hitting on the 1(beat, rhythm, reaction) for every hit there is a reaction, or we can call it an awareness. When you learn to center (focus) your hitting you can begin to control the reaction of the bag, thus the beat, rhythm, frequency of the returned energy. There I said it. The 3 count that Mike spoke of is the foundation for establishing this rhythm once you learn to control in-frequent hitting of the bag (when the bag moves chaotic on the swivel. You can begin to cut into the beat by constantly hitting on the 1. each hand moving in sync to keep the beat. To break this as Mike said change distance, hand positions, and walk the bag. (Start at one end of the bag and move around the bag to the other side).

Just be creative and use the bag as a guide, like a jab sets up the cross the bag can help you gauge how you're hitting based on the reaction to you punch. my 2cents.

**gabbah** · 08-17-2004, 02:16 PM

I have tried what Mike suggested for one session now. I still have a long way to go, but already I could jab cross jab cross pretty fast.
Also, like you said mike, in order to hit always in the same line I was forced to rotate the hips and upper body, and pivot the foot of the lead leg for jab and rear leg for the cross.
So if nothing else it teaches you proper pivot, rotation of hips and getting the shoulders close to the head when hitting

What was pretty hard was to only jab. It demanded more energy than jab cross, and I was not using the same rotation and pivot as when using both hands. I guess I'm just too slow yet hehe.

The problem with the bag is that it's to high up. I'm pretty short, so I can only hit it with hammerfists. To throw real punches I need to stand on several mats to raise me up.. and that limits my moving. I would like to try rotate around it, but the mats are not very big :/

**BrotherD** · 08-17-2004, 04:57 PM

Yes yes

Indeed Mike,
Boxing in the old days was not sport. and those guys trained as hard if not harder tahn fighter\ Boxers today.
The old cat I work with told me to listen to the beat, not just hit it. cutting the beat is where masters play. Like Sayoc's Feeder mindset once you start, he will react. To keep him of balance change your feed (beat). Getting off first is a plus to this type of fighting, as is baiting and countering the sweet stuff.
this is why we train hard to make the complex look simple, no one will see the hours of hard work that goes along with Mastery.
Peace

**gabbah** · 08-17-2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Mike Brewer

If you step in a little closer and hit upward slightly, connecting with the speedbag while it's still at a pretty sharp angle upward (meaning it's just barely coming off the platform after the "Dah" beat, but not nearly back to vertical...a little steeper than this mark: /), then you'll knock it back upward more cleanly. It's tough, and it'll make the bag move faster, but try it and see what happens. Remember, the key is to hit into the center of the bag's mass. Any angle will work, so long as it's into center. Think 3 dimensionally, and you'll realize that the center can be hit while the bag is nearly horizontal as well as it can while vertical. Did I just make that too complex?

Hey no problem, studying civil engineering and IQ about 130 (logical) I would be ashamed not to understand that (because your explainations are very good!)

I will try the uppercut next time!
In fact, I'm very much interested in the mechanics behind fighting, so I always try to figure out things from that perspective.
One thing I noticed though: When using the jab for instance, in real fighting you throw it straight out and the straight back into guard position. Never do you hit and draw it back in an arc motion. Well, currently I need to do this when hitting the bag and try for some speed. Because if I don't let my hands drop down a bit after the hit, they will be in the way when the bag bounces back again.
That CAN happen when you use hammerfists and go REALLY fast, but it's rare because with the hammerfist the motion of the hand is an elipse.
So I worry that the bag work here is not consistent with the real punches. Or maybe I can just go faster rythm-wise than I can throw jab and cross (I have very good rythm naturally).
I just feel I need to add that I don't mean to brag or anything, I'm not like that. I'm no show off in any way.

Just so you know, that as long as you explain things well, I will most likely understand it.. no need to hold back valuable info!

/Gabriel

**gabbah** · 08-17-2004, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by BrotherD

Indeed Mike,
cutting the beat is where masters play. Like Sayoc's Feeder mindset once you start, he will react. To keep him of balance change your feed (beat). Getting off first is a plus to this type of fighting, as is baiting and countering the sweet stuff.

yes, come now that you mentioned it, I have seen exactly that in many fights: When going into punching range, sometimes one of the fighters rythm is slightly after his opponent, and thus his strike misses mostly and the opponents hit.
At my level this does not really show of course.. we barely have a rythm of our own!

But it's cool to know it's there in front of me!

**gabbah** · 08-18-2004, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Mike Brewer

Gab,
Try not to think of hitting with just an uppercut. You can direct your jabs and crosses upward, still hitting straight but on the upward diagonal.

When I worked the bag with jab and cross, I raised myself so that the bags center of mass was at the height of my own chin. That way I could throw punches like I would against an opponent my height. Slightly upwards.
Are you saying I should be lower and hit more upwards? I don't see the point of that if that is what you're saying..

Well sometimes I will fight opponents that are taller, true, but to start this specific drilll, isn't it better to keep it natural for me?

To clearify, when I said I would try the uppercut, of course I meant after a jab cross.

Originally posted by Mike Brewer

By the way, I had a sparring session yesterday with a boxing student and I was working specifically on closing with him after long-range punches -- trying to follow the jab or cross all the way back to a clinch without allowing him to throw another shot, and without "hitting my way in." It works timing, especially when you find a groove and manage to slip or bob and get under a guy's arm. I ended up following shots back so that my shoulder was under my partner's armpit over and over. It got me thinking about this thread, because that's the "in-between" rhythm we've been talking about. Mozart said that all music is made up of the same eight notes. It's the use of the spaces in between that differentiate between the novice and the master.

Yeah if you watch skilled strikers in pride FC or K-1, that's exactly what they do when they want to rest, or if they're cornered. wait for the cross, either slip it and go to the side or just move backward and then follow the punch back like you said Mike. The result is shoulder under armpit in many cases.

Damn there are so many drills I want to do, and so little time! It's almost good that my injured foot is not completely healded yet. That way I'm forced to stand pretty much still. So I train my boxing. But damn I miss sparring! :/

**gabbah** · 08-18-2004, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Mike Brewer

Yeah, Gab...if you can set things up so the bag is at the correct height, that's good. I was just under the impression that you couldn't make proper adjustments.

Ah, ok. Well it's partially true.

I can not lower the bag, but I use several mats to create a square shaped surface to stand on. That way the bag is in the correct height. But I can't rotate around the bag, only move a bit forward and backwards.

**BrotherD** · 08-18-2004, 10:10 AM

"It got me thinking about this thread, because that's the "in-between" rhythm we've been talking about. Mozart said that all music is made up of the same eight notes. It's the use of the spaces in between that differentiate between the novice and the master. "

Great insight here Mike, also I'm feeling you on your tips the more you have in your bag, the better your game. The key is to reduce the steps (reason for over complicated the basic). 8 keys to harmony 4 beats to count (rhythm) to get to the one we much understand the base that we are building on. The 1 is an odd count and hard to track. (parrying\ slipping or bobbing and weaving) but once your in tune( timing) with him\her, you don't have to think about it just bring the pain, and watch them react. Jordan and Ali were able to tapped into the zone Like Tony Hawk. It's the ability to slow things down around you or make them seem bigger or smaller to you. Some call it spatial distortion. You ever trip while walking on a flat surface, or stubble up a flight of stairs? Or worse fall down a flight because for some reason you missed the first step.
This happens in Fighting it’s called tunneling another way of saying (spatial distortion). You are so focused that you don’t realize that you’re not grounded. Rhythm establishing a beat to keep you in the moment. Ali talked and danced, while Mike talked and stuck out his tongue. Boxers beat on their chest, or pull on their shorts. Or they beat the speed bag with their feet. To stay in the moment. Little things like this won't give you great skill, but great skill is built from every tangible thing that you are made of.
I've gain alot from this thanks Gabbah for bring up this topic here, and thanks Mike for sharing your experiences.
Peace