boxing or bare knuckle boxing training

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Right on

Most knockouts result from the brain bouncing back and forth inside the skull and shutting down to protect itself. This is why amatures wear head gear. It also helps prevent excessive cutting around the orbital of the eye. A lot of fighters have had their careers ended early due to scar tissue around their eyes opening up , ie. Elvis Sinocec

[koto_ryu]

yeah, and they couldn't hit as hard as the boxers now days can, and rounds were judged by how many times you landed on your ass.
Any modern boxer could destroy an old-school boxer. (even old school muay thai guys would succumb to modern thai fighters/ lethwei fighters)
Competitive arts like these don't lose their effectiveness over time.
Sure, the old guys had more heart and moxy...but the modern, new-school training methodologies and adaptations are pure DARWIN baby! Fux yeah.

Not necessarily true about the hitting thing. Jack Johnson hit (I believe it was) Sailor Tom Sharky in the mouth once so hard his lower lip actually got wedged between his teeth. Sharky's corner just cut the part off with a razor blade and kept going (they were tough back in those days). Once they did begin using small soft gloves, Johnson punched another one of his opponents so hard one of his teeth actually got lodged in his glove.

Johnson was a tremendous puncher, as he spent much of his teen years working at a candy factory pulling taffy all day long. Hence he had incredible upper-body strength, and had some of the fastest hands around. His favorite parlor trick was to sit in a chair with his hands down by his side and have people throw punches at him, and he never got hit. He was also the first American heavyweight champion, as he beat the champ of his time in London but never got any respect as he was a black man during racist times. As far as new guys whupping any of the older guys, who nowadays do you think has a chance against Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano? I rest my case

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Old school

Not necessarily true about the hitting thing. Jack Johnson hit (I believe it was) Sailor Tom Sharky in the mouth once so hard his lower lip actually got wedged between his teeth. Sharky's corner just cut the part off with a razor blade and kept going (they were tough back in those days). Once they did begin using small soft gloves, Johnson punched another one of his opponents so hard one of his teeth actually got lodged in his glove.

Way to break out the old school knowledge koto_ryu. Evolution isn't always a positive thing!

[koto_ryu]

Way to break out the old school knowledge koto_ryu. Evolution isn't always a positive thing!

Yeah, nobody gives the old-timers their proper respects but they were tough as nails Look at Jess Willard and how savagely Dempsey beat on him: seven knockdowns in the first round, with broken ribs, jaw, eye socket, and cheekbones and the guy still tried to stand up to fight for round 2. Tough hombres, those guys

[Garland]

Um...Yeah.
I like Demsey and Marciano...but even in their hayday, they aren't the technicians that pro-boxers are today. (this may be considered heresey, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say Ali also) The heart is there, I'm sure, but modern boxers have technical superiority and, in many cases, very well thought out training methodologies, not like the monotony and grit of yore.

Things only get better with time, my friend.
If you hide things away for too long, they either become lost to antiquity and legend, or lose their practicality and become stale and ineffective.

Fisticuffs guys were a rough and tumble bunch or hard-assed bastards...but they didn't have the technique to go with a modern boxer. They'd be picked apart and destroyed.

You can't hit as hard without gloves on, because your hands would break, You can cut the shit out of somebody bareknuckles, cause swelling, welts, and lacerations and other injuries that you don't see with boxing gloves, but it's not because you're hitting harder;
point and case; see choke with Rickson Gracie, Yugi Magai's face with MMA gloves, or see any IVC fight...or bare knuckle vale tudo match, you'll see the difference,

[koto_ryu]

Um...Yeah.
I like Demsey and Marciano...but even in their hayday, they aren't the technicians that pro-boxers are today. (this may be considered heresey, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and say Ali also) The heart is there, I'm sure, but modern boxers have technical superiority and, in many cases, very well thought out training methodologies, not like the monotony and grit of yore.

Dempsey was a technical boxer, despite what many people think. His book on punching and aggressive defense goes for around $300 whenever it pops up, as it's filled with valuable information. And Dempsey did wear gloves in most of his fights, he was just that hard a hitter that he was a bone-breaker to the extreme. Tunney was the only person to beat him, and that was after training for SIX YEARS, concentrating on nothing but beating Dempsey. If it wasn't for that long count too, Dempsey probably would have had him. He was a killer in the ring.

And Rocky? The man was 46-0, 43 by knockout, 2 no-contests, and 1 referee stoppage. Sure he was more a blow for blow kind of guy, but I seriously doubt Lennox Lewis could hold against him. Look at the kind of fights they have nowadays and compare them with those back then, and you'll see a definite difference.

And how can you say a modern boxers has more technical superiority than, say, Ali? There's only so many things you can do, thats why boxing takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to master. Many of the so-called "technically superior" boxers nowadays have no idea how to do a shift, and nobody since Ali has ever had the kind of mastery of distance and timing that he possessed. Floyd Patterson was one of the cagiest fellows around, he had to be for being as old as he was and the champion of his time for several years, and trying to compare Floyd to Sugar Shane Mosley or de la Hoya is like comparing Frank Shamrock to Fred Ettish: they're just out of their league.

[Ironpalm]

yup...and that is why boxers these days can hit alot harder....because we have these huge mitts to protect our hands.
instead of cutting their faces with knuckles, we knock them out or cause internal problems with force.
your choice...maim, and disfigure over a long period of time with no action in a fisticuffs match, or to knock them the **** out and cause them some serious problems on the spot with modern boxing method.

Now correct me if Im wrong but I heard Mike Tyson broke his hand on some guys face who remained standing...

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Broken hand

Now correct me if Im wrong but I heard Mike Tyson broke his hand on some guys face who remained standing...

Yes he did. This usually comes from not hitting with the fore knuckles (and trying to tag a moving target). Roy Jones jr. had a lot of problems with breaking his right hand. Usually once you've broken a hand, the chances of reinjury are much greater.

[Ironpalm]

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[Jeremy Lobdell]

Don't forget the thumb hook to LI on the outside of the nostrel!
Mahalo, Jeremy

[Ironpalm]

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[Jeremy Lobdell]

Yes

My system (Ryu Kyu Kempo- GM George Dillman) calls colon large intestine. It also works great for a key turn throw or when you have someones back and they're turtleing up so you can't get a rear naked choke on them. They turn right into it. Pain advoidance rules.

[Ironpalm]

Thats pure genius! I guess I have to give Dillman another look, Never seen alot but heard bad things but you know how that is. 8-9 years ago I was moderator on a dim mak forum and all hell broke out on it with student wars. I got a bad taste, never looked again. My BAD.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

That seems to happen everywhere nowadays. I think it is probably seeing the same stuff from a different point of view for you, just like me training in a Chinese art. That's the part of ma that I really like, sharing ideas and info with open minded people like yourself. I have all of Dillmans books and would recomend them to anyone who is serious about pressure point fighting.

[Ironpalm]

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