Boxing vs. Asian Martial Arts

[Great Sage]

Sunfist,

I respect your willingness to defend your ideas. You have some insights from different angles. Kinda reminds me of Lizard, who comes up with the weirdest things.

Anyway, it's normal to face scrutiny when you're relatively new... Don't let that sway you from participating... Keep up the posts... BTW, this doesn't exempt you from my scrutinization...

Just my warm welcome,
GS

[chris davis 200]

He doesn't really suspect that the tales of old are full of exaggerations and lies.

Oh yes he does! Much of the 'chi' BS that you hear about old fighting masters origionates from people seeing internal masters defeating undefeated external champions. people couldnt figure out how this was done so they said it was magic . .. etc etc

I agree with you all on the multiple techniques learned badley are not as good as a few key weapons.

But i also think that very few people understand that all these techniques are not developed for every situation.

This is where many modern systems have failed to modify effectively the traditional methods they pull out the 'techniques' they think are relevant and discard the ones they think werent. So they miss the KEY lessons that the others have to teach - countering force coming in a certain direction (the actual attack is fairly irrelevant) etc etc etc.

This is mainly only true of external styles though (and mainly Japanese & Korean systems).

An art such as hsing i used 5 basic principles - you work on these for years and years. They are the heart of the system and cover every aspect of movement - both you and your opponent.

anyways,

You guys have heard this from me before surley .....

[Thai Bri]

sun fist - you're trying to logically prove something. When your life is on the line the only thing that will come naturally is to run off, screaming for your mum. No offence, it is the same for everyone.

Don't underestimate the effect of terror. Don't think that you can logically figure out theories about life or death situations. None of know what we will actually do from one life or death struggle to the next. But I have never seen anyone pull off a vast array of techniques when their safety is on the line. Never. Even sporting contestants rarely perform anything like a full repertoirre when in sport.

This is going round in circles. Take it or leave it.

Chris - I am still unconvinced. Totally.

[chris davis 200]

i have never seen anyone pull off a multitude of moves when stressed either.

I think the impression you have is that some how the person that knows loads of techniques will use them all in a single encounter - of course they wont. They will use the basics that they are most comfortable with and the techniques that are best programmed into them. you wont see an TJJ doing loads of different locks n throws in one kata (like many modern schools do) you see them do one effective counter. Just one. If you know it - this is all that is needed.

But i have used different techniques in defferent situations.

If i just knew how to punch (boxing) i would not be here. not a very effective art for a doorman unless you wanna go in and out of jail alot.

the point is that when faced with an extremely stressfull situation you dont have time to think - therefor you use the natural principles of fighting that you have learned. wether they be from boxing, BJJ, Karate or Tai chi you will use what you know.

If you dont know your options train harder. simple.

We will never agree Bri - its better that way!

[Thai Bri]

Actually I am beginning to agree with you more, after that post. Or is it you agreeing with me? Who can tell........

[BadgerFu57]

traditional/sunfist

Traditional have their place, especially in the well-being of people, but let's not be stubborn here. Traditional Martial Arts would be sticks and stones, Modern Martial Arts would be guns and tasers so to speak. If there is a better way, then use it.

TMA emphasize lots of blocks. It's easier just to make them miss and counter like boxing. Each time you block you open yourself up. And if he is strong or has a weapon, a block might get your arm broken.

I like Bruce Lee's ideas of taking the best and what works for you. If you want to use a rising block to defend a baseball bat, go ahead. I would prefer just to get out of the way and counter.

I think each art has good principles/techniques. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a child of Judo. He took Judo and expanded upon it to include more groundwork and leverage for a small guy. That's taking a traditional approach and improving upon it.

I think most would agree boxing/muay thai are perhaps the best striking "programs" (only word I could think of) out there. Boxer's may not have a lot of different techniques, but they have
EFFECTIVE techniques that they do often. A good boxer who has been boxing for 10 years has probably thrown an uncountable number of jabs. He is also going to be a lot more well conditioned than most (i say most, not all) Traditional Martial Artists. A boxing workout in itself is an extreme workout. Try throwing a punch to their solar plexus. If he is a good boxer, his abs will be like rocks.

I think boxing has two weaknesses. Lack of grappling and lack of kicks. That's where cross-training comes in.

[sercuerdas]

muay thai = good
boxing= good
grappling=good
karate= good
kung fu=good

it doesn't matter, if you train correctly and have confidence in your art great. do what ever you do. all the mine is better than yours nonsense just shows you need everyone to agree to validate your feelings. that being said( and sometimes i start writing and then can't comprehend what my point was)i feel that there is one area that tradtional arts may hold an advantage, longvitity.
muay thai= young mans game
grappling= young mans game
boxing= young mans game
while i agree that in your youth you should bang to learn what it is like, after you get a feel for it you could change your training.
if you do bang when your young, as you get old you could train a more traditinoal art and you would understand how it would really work.

[chris davis 200]

TMA emphasize lots of blocks. It's easier just to make them miss and counter like boxing. Each time you block you open yourself up. And if he is strong or has a weapon, a block might get your arm broken.

man o man you really dont have a clue about TMA if this is your honest opinion.

Some TMA emphisize blocks as do some modern schools. MANY do not - they slip, the yeld, they move, they pre emptivley strike etc etc. to say that TMA emphasise blocking is just plain rediculous.

tai chi - the principle is of non resistance,

hsing i - superior alignment to defeat the force coming at you by redirection, like walking onto a punch (or a spike as it has been discribed to me)

Wing chun - the use of fine angles to deflect incoming blows.

Ba gua - slipping oppents attacks with spiral / centrifugal force to effect powerful counters, the opponent throws punches and hitts nothing but air then simultaniously gets hit with hugely powerful strikes.

TJJ - the use of the opponents momentum and stance against them, a boyant boxing stance is the easyest to defend against (i have done this myself - on the street and on the door)

Wado Ryu karate is based on the principle of softness and speed - of not being there when an attck is coming.

- i could go on to prove you wrong about many many many styles of martial art, from Japan, china, indonesia etc. but i cant be bothered.

Unfortunatley this sort of close baseless opinion is quite common - people that dont have the first clue try to assume the situation.

My advice get to a reputable TMA school and ask to have a go.

If you want to use a rising block to defend a baseball bat, go ahead. I would prefer just to get out of the way and counter.

So would nearly all TMAists i have ever met, exept maybe some kyuokushin karateka!

He took Judo and expanded upon it to include more groundwork and leverage for a small guy. That's taking a traditional approach and improving upon it.

But he also did not keep many of the throwing techniques that are in Judo - some people would say that this is/was a big mistake, he basically took out the street defence aspect of the art - in favour of sport fighting.

Traditional Martial Arts would be sticks and stones, Modern Martial Arts would be guns and tasers so to speak. If there is a better way, then use it.

How do you know this other way is better??

another school of though says that you need to know a certain Art very very well before you are able to make the decission of what is useful and what is useless.

Just training in the art for a little while and throwing out anything that you do not immediatly understand is not enough.

I am not saying that the modern stuff is not useful - i am just saying that the TMA's have alot more to offer than Most realise - but in order to understand you have to train in them and train hard!!

cheers
Chris (currently blocking someone hitting me with a baseball bat) Davis

[chris davis 200]

good post sercuerdas,

[BadgerFu57]

I can't argue with that ;-)

You made a lot of good points.

My TMA knowledge is based on McDojos. So I can't claim to be an expert.

[Tom Yum]

You guys brought up a good point. Most of us are not going to box forever. Most of us are young recreational or amateur fighters but we respect aspects of the sport. Fighting is rough on the body. After hard sparring I don't feel like being touched for atleast 24 hours thereafter which is bad for your woman. However its good to know that you can shake off a few solid hits.

We're not going to be boxing till we're 45 but we might keep up the training cause its healthy and we're fans of the sport.

Chris and Secruerdas, I think the traditional arts do offer longevity which is something I've never really thought about. But what about applying these arts into realistic self-defense?

[sercuerdas]

hey tom,

like i said before you should definitly spar hard and box or grapple when your young so you know what fight pressure is. add this knowledge to traditional arts add you'll be fine as far as self defense goes.
now as for my opinion on self defense goes, i don't think it is that difficult of a thing to do. self defense/street fight is almost all mentality. you never square off, you never talk shit, if someone calls you an arsehole you hit and keep hitting until they are down. when we're young we tend to get fired up and talk trash and give our opponent the ability to prepare himself, this makes a fight hard. no you shouldn't look for fights,and yes if you can walk away doit,but when you feel the fight is going to happen just go go go.

[Tom Yum]

Its also different when you step into the ring and are trying to wear your opponents body and legs to bring down his defenses or get the angle vs. someone posturing you on the street.

I think most people would be more ferocious on the street and go all out in the first minute, do some damage and run rather than patiently set up openings.

[chris davis 200]

I work as a doorman and have had many many encounters, both one on one and multiple attackers.

Virtually all my training is traditional.

I have defended myself against boxers, thugs, drunks, and armed maniacs - so for me traditional works very very well.

I have worked with modern fighters and have supprised them all when i sort out situations they did not have the ability to handle. This is not a representation of the modern arts i know.

I think the opinion most people (here especially) have is that TMA dont train hard??

Ok you find some people in a dojo that dont but there are some that really really do!

Personally i run 5 miles 5 days a week

i also train for 2 hours in the morning (mailnly tai chi, chi gung and bag work), then from 6 - 7.30 (mainly ba gua and hsing i plus some more bag work) then TJJ from 730 - 915. i do this routine 4 days a week. and the training is realistic and intense. Offen doing full contact sparring with body paddding on with friends who are boxers and wing chuners.

i train 7 days a week, in the gym, in the dojo, on my own etc.

I train hard and most of the people i have met in the traditional MA train very hard too - how else would you get good. the comparison you make to boxing is based on a fat old american that is a traditionalist, not a younger fitter well trained fighter.

Mcdojo's and people that train for an hour a week when they are in the dojo, these people are not a representation of the traditional martial arts.

Regarding the age thing, I think that internal arts like tai chi are very very applicable to old age but most traditional martial arts arnt. You couldnt really do some of the rougher JJ into old age.

cheers
chris

[BadgerFu57]

I think McDojos have just given TMA a bad name.....