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**Tom Yum** · 11-09-2003, 06:25 PM

Bone Breaking

I think joint locking is what you are really referring to or bone fractures that are the result of a strike.

You are correct about the mechanics of joint dislocation. If you bend joints in the opposite direction of their natural bend with enough force, they will dislocate or break. They do work.

The issue that people on this board have with styles that teach joint locking is that the techniques are not practiced against training partners who resist, attempt to throw you or strike you. The only style that might be an exception is shuai jiao, which involves submissions from stand up practiced in random sparring against resisting partners whom are also trying to sweep, throw and lock your attempt.

The techniques effectiveness is about how readily you can apply it in a spontaneous situation against a resisting and striking partner.

For example, boxers are well trained in throwing fast and hard punches. They are also well trained in distancing, timing, mobility and how to take a hit. Their training partners hit them back when they try to land punches, so taking punches if necessary is part of their game. Wrestlers and Judoka train in a similar environment; they learn to throw, sweep, trip and tie up their opponent who is trying to do the same to them.

An unfortunate example of bone breaking styles not working is in UFC 6. John Matua, a black belt in the polynesian art of bone breaking fought against Tank Abbot, the seasoned boxer-street brawler. The fight lasted 17 seconds, with Tank winning by KO.

The sample clip before the fight showed Matua fighting a stationary and complient training partner who purposely tried not to strike him too hard. The training partner threw one telegraphed right hook and paused after the strike to let Matua get his takedown and joint lock. Meanwhile, the clip showed Tank Abbot shadow boxing with pretty good boxing technique throwing jabs and crosses.

If you're going to train in a joint locking or bone breaking style, do it in one that is rooted in judo, jujitsu or shuai jiao because those styles grapple alot in standup against resisting opponents.

**tai-gip** · 11-09-2003, 06:34 PM

i consider those in the ufc brawlers......
The gracies displayed the actual art they learned others are as above with bits and pieces thrown in .....

Ok and im talking about an actual martial artist not a fighter you know how there are people you meet in certain schools that bow to the instructor and are polite to everyone but when you watch them they are so much smoother than everyone else

i very much doubt the worls best martial artists are in the ufc only the best brawlers ... there realy is an appalling lack of technique shown...

People let the opinion take over thats its all brawling..

you see people kick threw baseball bats break bricks with there hands or feet with focus ...where is this focus in the ufc you cant tell me the technique dosnt work the problem is it isnt used

**Tom Yum** · 11-09-2003, 06:40 PM

What about Maurice Smith? He was an established professional kickboxer. He made Tank quit with thai style leg kicks. His technique and focus is excellent.

Breaking boards and bricks is an impressive demonstration of power, but not necessarily the same as fighting a moving target.

In the 1970s, several kung fu masters travelled to Thailand to take on the national Muaythai champions. The kung fu masters broke bricks before their fights to demonstrate the power of kung fu.

All of the kung fu masters got KOd by the 2nd round. One exception was a kung fu master from Malaysia who rocked his opponent with jumping knee kicks and traditional kung fu style kicking.

He won on points and hurt his opponent, but did not score a KO.

**tai-gip** · 11-09-2003, 07:14 PM

Tom i look at it this way and consider that many ma's have had similar experiances/insight when i was in thailand i made friends with one of the local champions who took me to some fights in the mountains where i was the only westerner there (my gf is chinese) these guys where throwing kicks at one another so hard and fast .. i havnt seen there like in any televised comp ... one guy gets nocked down by this smashing round kick gets up nods and slams one back ... looked like the where both actualy having fun but the power used and focusaed was massive but they kept going ...same for every fight i saw that night

then you see some "tahi champ" in a match here or in england fighting and its like one of the guys i say whos hasnt eaten for 2 weeks has been fed drugs that cause drowziness and paid to loose ????

and low and behold he looses no power no technique an easy victorey for some guy whos been training 5 years and has 33 professional fights lol.....

the average thai kid on the street has more exp and skill and would kick this guys but ..cant remember the name but there national sport is like volley ball with a hard cain ball you can only kick all you need to do is watch a coulpe of games to see how effective these guys would be on the street ..the bodys a much bigger target and generaly dosnt move anywhere near as fast unless its running away as fast as it can

same for fights in hkd they move like lighting you realy never see anything that fast or smooth but if some chinese fighter pops up somewhere(wich rarely happens) he looses
its a different philosophy to ours where people want to stand up and be counted for how good they are ..they want to reamin doing what they are doing and let us think what we want

have you watched kendo/bushido tournements ? very fast get a tape and watch in slow mo the blocks and paries and strikes talk about reflexes doubt many people here now anyone that fast

so when i post that is where im coming from crediting people here to either be at that level or at least know/except it exists and want to get there

and before you advise me this is crap i suggest you travel and look for yourself

**jubaji** · 11-09-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by tai-gip
when i was in thailand i made friends with one of the local champions who took me to some fights in the mountains where i was the only westerner there (my gf is chinese) these guys where throwing kicks at one another so hard and fast .. i havnt seen there like in any televised comp ... one guy gets nocked down by this smashing round kick gets up nods and slams one back ... looked like the where both actualy having fun but the power used and focusaed was massive but they kept going ...same for every fight i saw that night then you see some "tahi champ" in a match here or in england fighting and its like one of the guys i say whos hasnt eaten for 2 weeks has been fed drugs that cause drowziness and paid to loose ????
and low and behold he looses no power no technique an easy victorey for some guy whos been training 5 years and has 33 professional fights lol.....
the average thai kid on the street has more exp and skill and would kick this guys but ..cant remember the name but there national sport is like volley ball with a hard cain ball you can only kick all you need to do is watch a coulpe of games to see how effective these guys would be on the street ..the bodys a much bigger target and generaly dosnt move anywhere near as fast unless its running away as fast as it can
same for fights in hkd they move like lighting you realy never see anything that fast or smooth but if some chinese fighter pops up somewhere(wich rarely happens) he looses
its a different philosophy to ours where people want to stand up and be counted for how good they are ..they want to reamin doing what they are doing and let us think what we want
have you watched kendo/bushido tournements ? very fast get a tape and watch in slow mo the blocks and paries and strikes talk about reflexes doubt many people here now anyone that fast
so when i post that is where im coming from crediting people here to either be at that level or at least know/except it exists and want to get there
and before you advise me this is crap i suggest you travel and look for yourself

Damn you are an annoying kid.

No one esle in the world has the deep meaningful insight that you have to justify your juvenile comic book view on things. No one else has been able to make the miraculous discovery of the "airport" that you have. If only they knew the dark secret world of "mortal combat" that only you have seen...

I demand that you slap yourself in the face right now!

**RobertG** · 11-09-2003, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by tai-gip

have you watched kendo/bushido tournements ? very fast get a tape and watch in slow mo the blocks and paries and strikes talk about reflexes doubt many people here now anyone that fast

Nope. But I've seen Bullshido before.

**tai-gip** · 11-09-2003, 09:24 PM

tonnes of people i know look at things like this because they are informed or at least dont think they know it all ..someone having a differing point of view is not automaticaly an idiot and may infact have something to say that could be of benefit
and exactly what was it i said that was so hard to follow

have you been to thailand ?
did you actualy pay attention to what was going on?
do you realy think that people who created the art and practice from the age they do as often as they do can be beaten that easily..?
let me put it this way if you fight a white belt you might let them get you so they can learn but it dosnt make them better

its not dark secret or mortal combat its right in you face so deal with it dont rule it out realise its there and improve your self accordingly i know they say ignorance is bliss as perhaps is unconsioucness but id rather not find out .....

or have you been to hk and seen there fights hell there are moves in demo videos from asian instructors you can see without watching in slow motion but realy i get your opinion but i hope you three arny the only people on this forum and someone may get something from it
speed and power all come from mental focus but you limit yourself to having what you know being as far as you can go ...good thing we already have fire and electricity because someone had to create them from nothing and figure out how to use them and go further not just sit there going uggg me uggg me not want to be warm get out of cave uurrrggg you dumb you know u can only get warm from big orange bulb

can there be some kind of rule that numbnuts must actualy research before responding ...remembering that you couldnt break bones and the above states how and when can you people look into this first how ignorant do you want to be

**jubaji** · 11-09-2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by tai-gip
tonnes of people i know look at things like this because they are informed or at least dont think they know it all ..someone having a differing point of view is not automaticaly an idiot

but somehow you managed it!

**Tom Yum** · 11-09-2003, 09:29 PM

Of course Thais are going to be really good at muay thai. Its their national sport. Cubans and Mexicans are really good boxers (in the middle weight categories and down; Americans and English are the better heavyweights, cruiser and lt heavyweights.

Koreans are the best at Tae kwon do and Hap ki do. The argument you made was that bone breaking techniques are real. I agree; they are.

The argument is that it takes several years before you can be confident in your art, wheras in arts like boxing or muay thai you can learn quickly from sparring.

**tai-gip** · 11-09-2003, 09:30 PM

lol yes i did in your view good on your insight an attempts to better yourself ohh and we havnt been to the moon its all a fraud you know ,,,now i know you know it because you havnt been there yourself and cant prove we have

you can lead a horse to water ...but cant make it drink

if you know everything for a definative fact please post so otherwise except that you dont that someone else may know something you dont and that its better to try something that improves you that is wrong than right of something real that sounds wrong

**jubaji** · 11-09-2003, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by tai-gip
have you been to hk and seen there fights hell

is that near New Jersey?

you are truly an awesome unique worldly master! Oh, the secrets you have seen. Oh, the dark mysteries you dare not speak of!

Oh, what an idiot.

**tai-gip** · 11-09-2003, 09:37 PM

lol so is that the problem jubaji am i threatening your manhood with what im talking about ....would it effect your reality that much to accept what im saying ?
im not saying im any good though just that ive seen others who are and am aware how much better they are dosnt mean i can punch my way out of a paper bag though ..dosnt mean i cant either but thats not the point

**Tom Yum** · 11-09-2003, 09:41 PM

Pull yourself away from the kim chi. What I am saying is that hapkido techniques take a long time to perfect before they are usefull and then it takes longer to train against a resisiting opponent.

I studied hapkido for 4 years. Some of it was watered down so that the instructors could make $$$$. The school produced some decent fighters but even more people with false confidence. A boxer with 6 months experience could've destroyed some of the brown belts.

When the school first opened, the students who rushed to sign up were serious and worked the hardest. When the instructors started to make $$$ as classes grew, quality dropped and testing fees went up. After a few more years, the following generations of students were paying to pass. Some could not throw a hook kick higher than waist level.

A potentially good school...

**tai-gip** · 11-09-2003, 09:52 PM

my first wc instructor took over from another and dwindles 1000 students at different locations to 30 or so who all trained weekends at his house full on/out ....
push up with people sitting on your shoulders.squats piggy backing people piggyback races ran around his subberb holding a 4 foot heavy bag above our heads.leg raises where you lay on your back and lift your feet someone pushes your feet down to the ground you had to stop them hitting then raise back up etc good times
he teaches in la know Maurice Llewalyn was a kickboxing then tdd now wc instructor taugh ma to the army and was a military fitness instructor good hard guy though hes crap at replying to e-mails
had an argument about loosing that many students so he left aus

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