Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[kcigam]

I learned enough to know that it was wasting my time. A year is a long time. I trained a whole shit load of hours outside of class time too, and it was bollox.

I hate to say this, but I think you just had a bad instructor.

But I do agree that there are certain things in boxing that wing tsun would have a lot of trouble dealing with, like the fast straight jabs and the quick footwork.

But the reason you don't see boxers and WT students squaring up against each other and video taping it is that they have nothing to do with each other. WT and all of its variations are purely street defense styles. there are groin kicks, eye jabs, throat jabs, etc... boxing is a sport with rigid rules about what's allowed. and what's not. If you were for some reason to put the together in the ring, and you told the wing tsun guy to only use his hands and not throw rabbit punches etc... then of course the boxer would destroy him, but put a boxer in the street where anything goes and he wouldn't see the kick to the balls coming, nor would he be able to recover from a series of chain punches or would he know what to do when the wt guy is sticking to him like glue and redirecting his punches while throwing his own. If a wt guy was to fight a boxer, it would probably be in the streets and it probably wouldn't be recorded on ESPN.

[LittleDemon]

I know that WT works because i can actually relate a lot of the theory of power control with my horse riding. I do classical dressage and it's about riding in harmony with the horse, the big difference with horse riding is that the horse's paces are all natural where as WT is compeltely alien to the human body.

Ive been riding for 15 years and training wt for 5 1/2/years no other martial art has appealed to me, im a very competitive person from my school days i competed in a lot of sports. Wing Tsun isn't trained for competition but self defence so for someone like me if it wasn't a bloody good system i shouldn't still be training it.

I don't believe your comment also that Leung - Ting was the only closed dorr student of Yip Man.

[LittleDemon]

[QUOTE=Michael Maison]Some neophyte studies WC for one year and then dabbles in a bunch of other styles. What is obvious is that he has become a kindergartner in several schools, and a master of nothing.

What pity.....because he has rigid vertical stances, he thinks everybody moves like that. I know WC sifu's who DANCE around boxers.....

HEY Thai Bri believes i will succeed in my WT training so it shows that maybe it's not for him but don't aptronise him for being honest least the guy tried ait and for a year as well most people i know who get fed up with it dont even last that long. It's a system that is a lifelong commitment like horse riding, ive been horse riding 15 years and im stilla novice, Thai Bri obviously is going to look for something quick to learn and thats effective because he wishes to protect his family, so next time i would think before OPENING YOUR BIG FAT UGLY MOUTH

[kcigam]

I know that WT works because i can actually relate a lot of the theory of power control with my horse riding. I do classical dressage and it's about riding in harmony with the horse, the big difference with horse riding is that the horse's paces are all natural where as WT is compeltely alien to the human body.

Ive been riding for 15 years and training wt for 5 1/2/years no other martial art has appealed to me, im a very competitive person from my school days i competed in a lot of sports. Wing Tsun isn't trained for competition but self defence so for someone like me if it wasn't a bloody good system i shouldn't still be training it.

I don't believe your comment also that Leung - Ting was the only closed dorr student of Yip Man.

Yeah, there's a lot of controversy surrounding that... frankly I'm a skeptic too, but that's what he claims...

I completely agree with you that its a damn good system of self defense, but maybe not the best for a boxing match or another environment with rigid rules of combat. You have to check so much of your arsenal at the door, like the finger jabs and the kicks. Plus, if you've been training with chi sau for a while (as I imagine you have with 5.5 years of training) it become very hard to catch yourself from doing an 'illegal' move in an environment like that. An eye jab or a groin kick may be the best move in a self-defense situation but its not too kindly looked upon if the martial artists that spar WT practitioners end up blind or sterile after the fight. That's why I think there aren't too many videos of boxers fighting WT practitioners. It's like having apples and oranges beat the crap out of each other

[Thai Bri]

Awwwwww! LittleDim One coming to my defence! I'm touched girl!

kcigam - you seem a decent sort. I am still pretty skeptical about WC. I want to see evidence of PRACTICE, not theory. Is that reasonable?

[kcigam]

Not only reasonable but logical. You can't take something like self defense on faith.

[Michael Maison]

Wing Chun

Brit,

I'm glad you acknowledge that you weren't able to master WC in a year's time. As far as why, I can only give you my understanding, which is going to be incomplete in that I nor anybody living today doesn't know exactly what Shaolin masters had in mind when they developed the system: It was developed as a distillation of martial arts WC, snake, etc, to learn how to fight against oppressors, using the most economical elements of different systems in a shorter time period (I've heard 5 years, full time). As far as these comments go:



>But is that because it is some fantastic, mysterious art that will give you >super human power of you devote your life to it.......... or is it just >inefficient?

>Personally I believe the latter. Try WW2 Combatives for example. You will >become a more effective fighter after 1 lesson, never mind 1 year!


This sounds more like rhetoric than an actual attempt to understand the phenomenology of Southern Chinese MA. I don't have time to engage in that, but if you're willing to speak intelligently, and I'm certain that you are emminently qualified to do so, I'm willing to talk and listen.


You also said:

>I learned enough to know that it was wasting my time. A year is a long >time. I trained a whole shit load of hours outside of class time too, and it >was bollox.

I would not dispute that you put in a long year, as you indicated, without much return. Perhaps your failure to learn what you felt you should was a function of the instructor, the particular form of WC (TWC v modified v all the other plethora of styles), or even perhaps that the real combative functional elements of the style(s) aren't manifested until well after the first year. These are but two of the myriad of possibilities.

Another consideration that I didn't talk about here, but deserves mentioning. I'm 100% certain that there are people in ALL of the respective martial arts who consititute the "whores" of the field or profession - those who exploit, bastardize, dilute, and otherwise commercialize what was once a para-sacred artform in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. These people shouldn't be regarded in the same universe as the Sifu's who teach for the sake of propegating the knowledge and the purity of the artform.


Finally:

>By the way, I really hate to doubt your word about the Dancing Sifu's. Why >not put me straight by giving us all one piece of actual evidence to prove >your point. Or are you just as full of shit as the style?

The Chinese mentality is difficult to understand. In order to be privy to some of the techniques they use, you have to be close to if not actual lineage of the respective masters. I am as close to my sifu as a beginning/intermediate (4th year student) can be, and yet he only divulges little pieces at a time. There are entire forms with hidden movements, that have two or more versions in order to conceal the "real" part of the form from "aliens"...... Chinese people are very, very sneaky.

You have to remember, a boxer would pose a threat (circular arch punches) to many forms of WC, but other forms of the styles have compensated, and other MA have developed parts of other styles to add more to there armamentarium. I think people get WAY too hung up on styles, and not individual aspects of a fighter. Thats kind of like picking out a piece of crummy classical music and indicting the whole genre.


MM

[jubaji]

The Chinese mentality is difficult to understand. Chinese people are very, very sneaky.

That is some foul, racist bullshit.

[Thai Bri]

Lets not over react mate.......

Michael, I don't doubt your honesty and integrity. But ask yourself this. How many rice bowls do you have to fill over the years before the Master finally shows you how to do the style properly?

[T-3]

Yeah, there's a lot of controversy surrounding that... frankly I'm a skeptic too, but that's what he claims...

I completely agree with you that its a damn good system of self defense, but maybe not the best for a boxing match or another environment with rigid rules of combat. You have to check so much of your arsenal at the door, like the finger jabs and the kicks. Plus, if you've been training with chi sau for a while (as I imagine you have with 5.5 years of training) it become very hard to catch yourself from doing an 'illegal' move in an environment like that. An eye jab or a groin kick may be the best move in a self-defense situation but its not too kindly looked upon if the martial artists that spar WT practitioners end up blind or sterile after the fight. That's why I think there aren't too many videos of boxers fighting WT practitioners. It's like having apples and oranges beat the crap out of each other

I've sparred with WT practitioners and received neither an eye jab nor groin kick. Maybe because they couldn't get passed the ol' "one-two" with kick to the mid thigh. HMMM! Good self defense, possibly; combative, doubtful. Would you happen to have videos of apples beating the crap out of oranges?

[Michael Maison]

Well, it may be racist to you, but it's origin is from several sifu's I know who all happen to be.........you guessed it: Chinese.

Brit, good question; I'll try to reply later!!!!

MM

[jubaji]

Well, it may be racist

It is.


Don't bother telling me how many Chinese folks you know, it doesn't alter the fact.

[Michael Maison]

Racism is close minded

....and anyone who truncates a response like you did to edit out half of a dependent clause is also close-minded.

I said, to repeat for your flea brain, that the statement was made by Chinese, which has little to do with how many Chinese people I do or do not know. So take your pandering and histrionics to some other crying liberal and if you can't assmilate or handle a complete thought, f* off.

[Michael Maison]

Thai Bri,

I private messaged you my email address. If you respond, I'll give you some interesting info on TWC relative to some of your comments/questions.

You can then see for yourself it makes sense to you or not.

Later mate!

MM

[jubaji]

....and anyone who truncates a response like you did to edit out half of a dependent clause is also close-minded.

I said, to repeat for your flea brain, that the statement was made by Chinese, which has little to do with how many Chinese people I do or do not know. So take your pandering and histrionics to some other crying liberal and if you can't assmilate or handle a complete thought, f* off.

Yeah, I somehow figured out your 'complex' message.

It is clear that you are too absurdly obtuse to comprehend the social dynamic involved in the statements you heard. The manner in which you reproduced those statements is inherently racist. Your inability or refusal to recognize this doesn't change that fact.

Idiot.