Wing Chun or Wing Tsun?

[bartjam]

I heard that Wing Chun and Wing Tsun is almost the same thing but there are a few differences. Can someone tell me which i should take and what the differences are?

WingTsun is what GM Leung Ting teaches. Leung Ting comes from Hong Kong and has been student of the late Yip Man (at least he claims so). The biggest WT federation is EWTO (European WingTsun Org.), which is famous for being a collection of McDojos (although there are good persons and skillful technicians).

Leung Ting interpretation differs from other Wing Chun schools especially in stances, steps and the way they perform Tan Sau/Bong Sau. Emphasis is on the "unmoveable elbow" during chi-sau and fighting. They also codified a sparring drill called Lat-Sau (which is not a traditional sparring - like old lat-sau was).
Leung Ting and his seniour student Keith Kernspecht claim to have adapted Wing Chun to modern days street-self-defense needs, yet forms, bows and pre-arranged sparring are important parts of their training programs.
In the late 80s/early 90s their organization has grown like no other in Europe, and many thought WT to be the end all and be all of MA and self-defense.
EWTO is, instead, in a crisis today. Many top guys left it (Boztepe, Reimers, Tassos among others), and what they offer is *almost* always a non-contact training, with loads of chi-sau and a little self-defence (normally performed without real contact nor pre-fight rituals or scenarios).
Still they claim to be unbeatable.

[Thai Bri]

Thanks for that, it was pretty interesting.

[Hot Sauce]

Thai Bri,

Open another thread and we'll discuss wheater or not Wing Chun works. Nothing can save your ass, prove me wrong?

Besides it's you that have to show some proof that wc doesn't work cause you were the one who claimed that it was ineffective.

[Thai Bri]

Well, thats stretching things a bit. Surely it is the other way round. Imagine I try to sell you a car made of bread. Silly example I know, but it proves a point. Do you have to buy it unless YOU prove it DOESN'T work? Or do I, as the seller, have to prove to you that it works.

The onus is on WC people to do the proving.

Having said that I think I've made a good case anyway. After all, I did dedicate a whole year of my life to it.

[Hot Sauce]

Well, thats stretching things a bit. Surely it is the other way round. Imagine I try to sell you a car made of bread. Silly example I know, but it proves a point. Do you have to buy it unless YOU prove it DOESN'T work? Or do I, as the seller, have to prove to you that it works.

The onus is on WC people to do the proving.

Having said that I think I've made a good case anyway. After all, I did dedicate a whole year of my life to it.

I see your point. Lets take your example, the seller proves to you that it works by driving it or let you testdrive it, if you like it and believe it suits you, you have to pay to buy it. So you have to go to the dojo and try it which you have done, but only at three schools from the same linage. You found out that it does not work but you havn't proved to us that it doesn't work. I am not saying it does work since I have no experience from the linage noir any of the instructors you have visited.

[Tameo]

Boxing is a sport has its rules and if you brake them you are disqualified. Wing Chun has no rules you can use pressure point strikes eye striking and techniques that a boxer doesnt know how to do. How can you compare the 2?

[Thai Bri]

Because a boxer trains like a demon and fights full contact. Whereas WC pitter patter up and down the hall jabbing at thin air.

Hot Sauce - I have only seen the one lineage close up. Luckily Tameo here (or some similar idiot) posted clips from another one on this site a few weeks ago. They were appalling.

[Hot Sauce]

Because a boxer trains like a demon and fights full contact. Whereas WC pitter patter up and down the hall jabbing at thin air.

Hot Sauce - I have only seen the one lineage close up. Luckily Tameo here (or some similar idiot) posted clips from another one on this site a few weeks ago. They were appalling.

A boxer usually trains against other boxers with boxing gloves. Therefore they don't train against other styles or any street fighters. For example, their guard is very high, over the eyesight and hence blocking the view to the sides. Thats why Krav Maga has the guard lower than the eyes so they can see the surronding and spot possible threats that could happen when fighting on the street.

You said that the average boxer could win over the average wing chun practioner. I have read somewhere that the International Wing Tsun Organization (IWTO) is the biggest kung fu organization in the world. So I assume that that the average wc practioner is a WT practioner. Lets say that he has trained 3 times 1,5 hours a week during 1 year. He should be at least half passed the WT student grades. Lets say student grade 5. The scale is 1-12 for you who doesn't know. When you have the fifth SG, you should have gone through most of the unarmed combat against other common styles incluiding the western boxing system. Thats why I believe that the average wc practioner can win over an average boxer, who from my own experience, only trains to improve his health.

Clips doesn't show much... you can't judge a style from clips. There are clips where WT practioners get beaten up and where WT practioners win, like from the latest Viking Fight in Denmark. Ultimatley it all depends on the practioner and not the style. Besides members of the IWTO are not allowed to ditrubute clips, with medium and up techinces.

[Tameo]

Because a boxer trains like a demon and fights full contact. Whereas WC pitter patter up and down the hall jabbing at thin air.

Not true. At the place were i train we do tons of sparing and have full contact classes. We even have a professional boxer who comes in to train WC.

[Thai Bri]

Tameo - yeah..... I've seen the clips.

Hot sauce. I understand the limitations of Boxing. They only train a tiny amount of techniques. But they train them oh so well.

[bartjam]

[QUOTE=Hot Besides members of the IWTO are not allowed to ditrubute clips, with medium and up techinces.[/QUOTE]

And what's your explanation for that? some say that they don't want to show the world their "secrets". This is ridiculous, of course. There are no secrets, in fact. A better explanation is that Leung Ting and Kernspecht want to have total control of everything and everyone, they do instructional tapes with loads of fake attacks against which their moves are amazing and their defenses unbeatable. Have you seen the clip showing Kernspecht (10th PG - so a Grand Master) against the bulgarian wrestling champion? You find the clip somewhere on the net. It's an interesting demonstration, but the attacks of the wrestler are academic and for the sole purpose of studying. That's the only type of clips they show...
It's high time Leung Ting people should put their art under pressure, against skilled fighters, so that all the world can see how WT works under extreme situations.

[Hot Sauce]

Hot sauce. I understand the limitations of Boxing. They only train a tiny amount of techniques. But they train them oh so well.

Same with WT

And what's your explanation for that? some say that they don't want to show the world their "secrets". This is ridiculous, of course. There are no secrets, in fact. A better explanation is that Leung Ting and Kernspecht want to have total control of everything and everyone, they do instructional tapes with loads of fake attacks against which their moves are amazing and their defenses unbeatable. Have you seen the clip showing Kernspecht (10th PG - so a Grand Master) against the bulgarian wrestling champion? You find the clip somewhere on the net. It's an interesting demonstration, but the attacks of the wrestler are academic and for the sole purpose of studying. That's the only type of clips they show...
It's high time Leung Ting people should put their art under pressure, against skilled fighters, so that all the world can see how WT works under extreme situations.

Well well well, I have found the best style for me so it doesn't matter much whether you think it works or not. In fact the less people who know WT the better for me. If they don't know what they are up against or underestimate WT, the better for me and all WT practioners, from a self-defense point of view. For example the style BJJ was unbeatable when it was "new", but now everybody knows the BJJ fighters techniques and they aren't as effective as they used to be because when we know them we are prepared for them and can train against them.

I have to admit that the structure of the IWTO is not so democratic as I wish it would be. I hope they will make some changes. I don't know which video you are reffering to when you say "they do instructional tapes with loads of fake attacks against which their moves are amazing and their defenses unbeatable" so I can't really comment that. However if you mean the videos where a wt guy vs different styles and with special sound effects, I can tell you that high ranked WT practioners think it is useful as a reference. I haven't seen it.

Secret vidoes of all WT techniques was recorded by Leung Ting to preserve t the original Wing Tsun for future genereations. Theese videos are usually showed at large WT events and only for high ranked WT practioners (TG and up I believe), incluiding my sihing.

Yes I have seen the clip on the net with the bulgarian wrestler. It's not the only type of videos on the net. For example if you watch any video with Tassos, Guitierrez or Braun you will notice that they are very violent.

Last sunday 2 WT fighters fought and won in "Viking Fight", one with a KO and the other one with a lock, both of them won in the first round. One of the videos from the fight can be found on the net, the other one was showed on Viasat Sport. If things keep going in this direction you will for sure see more "WT".

[bartjam]

Same with WT
Last sunday 2 WT fighters fought and won in "Viking Fight", one with a KO and the other one with a lock, both of them won in the first round. One of the videos from the fight can be found on the net, ".

Hot, can you provide a link ? I visited Viking Fight website but I didn't find it... sorry.

I have all Gutierrez videos. Some are good, the anti-grappling one is not so good, IMHO. Tassos clips I have show a very skillful and fast WT practitioner, but not real fighting. Anyway, I know that Tassos is a tough and dangerous fighter (some say even a bit crazy one...).
WT can be very effective, but you have to train it hardcore, like too many out there DON'T do. Also, it's not a bad idea to cross-train it with a good grappling art (Emin Boztepe trained in freestyle wrestling for years...)

cheers

[Hot Sauce]

Hot, can you provide a link ? I visited Viking Fight website but I didn't find it... sorry.

I have all Gutierrez videos. Some are good, the anti-grappling one is not so good, IMHO. Tassos clips I have show a very skillful and fast WT practitioner, but not real fighting. Anyway, I know that Tassos is a tough and dangerous fighter (some say even a bit crazy one...).
WT can be very effective, but you have to train it hardcore, like too many out there DON'T do. Also, it's not a bad idea to cross-train it with a good grappling art (Emin Boztepe trained in freestyle wrestling for years...)

cheers

http://www.masterbjjeu.com/media/vf4_nic.mpg

[LittleDemon]

News

New info posted on my site :

http://groups.msn.com/EmmaSelfDefense/_whatsnew.msnw

The Changing Concept and Content of Kung Fu

Note: chinese martial arts have been known by over 40 different terms.

Can you answer the questions of how you will not find the term Kung Fu mentioned in classical chinese texts even though there is a lot of Kung Fu information that has been recorded in history and literature?

Did you know that centuries ago boxing and wrestling were popular sports as they are today?

During the Zhou dynasty (c1030-480BCE) archery and horse riding were important aspects of Kung Fu or as it was known back then as jiji.

In today's world of martial arts we think of it as involving sparring and unarmed combat patterns.

Kung Fu itself is older then civilisation because for as long as humans have existed there has been methods of fighting.

As long as there has been the ability to fight we have learned how to mould these skills to our advantage.
These skills were developed into an art that was Kung Fu, it was created before people began ideas of farming and settlement which were our very beginnings of civilization.

Throughout history and prehistory Kung Fu has been known by other names and the chinese martial arts in general by over 40 different terms.

Kung fu is a modern term 20th century however if you look at classical texts in the chinese language you will not find Kung fu anywhere to be found.

Instead you will find since 1949 the term wushu was being used. But the most commonly used term from the 3rd century BCE to the 19th century CE is "Wuyi" , Wu means martial and Yi means art. Both wushu and wuyi are translated into martial art.

Other common terms used in the past to decifer martial arts are:

Jeuli - combating strength
Jeudi - Wrestling
jiji - techniques of fighting
wuji - Martial techniques
xianpu - butting combat
xianpo - inter-combat
shoupo - hand combat or boxing
zuojiao - gripping and throwing
quanfa - fist techniques
quanshu - art of the fist



p.s i train Wing tsun and the only difference is that i its walled wing tsun because astudent of the buddhist nun ng mui (survivor of the sui lam monastery being burned to the ground) trained and passed her skills onto a female fighter called yim wing tsun hence the name of the kung fu style Wing Tsun, bruce lee trained wing tsun with master yip man before creating jeet kune do.