Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[Thai Bri]

You know something? With YouTube ANYONE can find convincing evidence of Western Boxing, MMA, Judo etc. being used against a resisting opponent.

But Wing Chun? Nah. Lots of set pieces (usually pretty ridiculous ones). And the occasional hilarious ones of th WC guy beaten to a pulp.

But the only "Wing Chiun" shows people with boxing guards doing MMA kicks and Judo grappling.

This is a biiiiig thread. There's plenty of thought out posts on the deficiencies in Wing Chun, and plenty of ridiculous claims and nonsense from pro Wing Chun guys.

I think an impartial observer could figure it all out and come up with a reasonable idea of whether or not to join a Wing Chun club.

[Red Rum]

You know something? With YouTube ANYONE can find convincing evidence of Western Boxing, MMA, Judo etc. being used against a resisting opponent.

But Wing Chun? Nah. Lots of set pieces (usually pretty ridiculous ones). And the occasional hilarious ones of th WC guy beaten to a pulp.

But the only "Wing Chiun" shows people with boxing guards doing MMA kicks and Judo grappling.

This is a biiiiig thread. There's plenty of thought out posts on the deficiencies in Wing Chun, and plenty of ridiculous claims and nonsense from pro Wing Chun guys.

I think an impartial observer could figure it all out and come up with a reasonable idea of whether or not to join a Wing Chun club.

I have never seen a clip on Youtube or otherwise of a streetfight where a boxer has fought a resisting opponent

If you are talking about cagefights or boxing rings etc, this has been covered to death. It is easy to glove up and fight 'resisting' opponents. But where are the videos of the gloves off fighting each other?
Nowhere. Reason - 14oz gloves offer a lot of cover and are easy to spar with. Take them off and boxers guards become very open (which is why many UFC fighters do not hold a boxers guard)

If you find anyone willing to get into a no holds barred fight with me, I would be glad to video it and show wing chun vs a resisting opponent.

The trouble with you Thai Bri is that you think everything you see in wing chun clips is non-wing chun. I have seen TKD guys doing a chop - I wouldn't suggest to them that it is actually a wing chun or Judo move.

Or if a kickboxer does a sweeping kick - I wouldn't suggest to them that it is in fact a karate move

I can understand your points if you saw a wing chun guy use BJJ and then claim that it was strictly wing chun

That is why Kevin Chan makes distinctions when he teaches.

[jubaji]

I have never seen a clip on Youtube or otherwise of a streetfight where a boxer has fought a resisting opponent.

Are you really saying that you don't think boxers ever get into street fights?


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[jubaji]

If you find anyone willing to get into a no holds barred fight with me, I would be glad to video it and show wing chun vs a resisting opponent. .

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LOL!

[Red Rum]

Are you really saying that you don't think boxers ever get into street fights?


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Nope. Thai Bri stated that there was numerous evidence of boxers, etc fighting resisting opponents on Youtube. My response were that these were not streetfighting videos

What I was trying to say was that video evidence is not always great - hence the clip that was posted recently of a 'wing chun' street fight on the Chinese Martial Arts part of the forum which was rubbish

Videos are not brilliant at relaying how good fights are. There are several clips of Royce Gracie in his early days which do not do him justice

Any martial artist will stand a better chance in the street than a person who has never done martial arts (with exceptions)

[Ghost]

Red rum your argument doesnt work, you cant say there are no videos of boxers in street fights therefore blah blah yet there are also none of wing chun.
there are videos of boxing based street fights on youtube though be they organized street fights etc.

The notion boxing doesnt work with gloves off is daft. Boxing has existed for a long time with no gloves before gloves were introduced. the guard is not open. ive sparred bare knuckle several times before in closed sessions and it makes no difference gloves on or off. in thailand they still fight bare knuckle and ive seen many fights like this, ok its the ring but if you can defend punches in the ring bare knuckle you can do it outside too.

Id like to add that i have no issue with wing chun though and have no points to make as to its effectiveness either good or bad. just defending boxings corner.

[Red Rum]

Red rum your argument doesnt work, you cant say there are no videos of boxers in street fights therefore blah blah yet there are also none of wing chun..

Thai Bri was trying to emphasise the fact that there are no wing chun videos where a person is fighting a resisting opponent
My point is that if you glove up and fight, this is not the same as street combat.

there are videos of boxing based street fights on youtube though be they organized street fights etc..

People always compare streetfighting to organised fighting. I would just say that when I say streetfighting, I am not talking about Streetfighter or bare knuckle fights. I am talking about a random attacker, whether it be from an aggressive mugger or drunk guy in a bar etc.
These are not the same as organised fights where you can wear people down through the rounds, have a break, know who you're fighting etc

A street confrontation is usually very nasty, gritty.

I'm not saying boxing is useless in the street, only that boxing in the ring and fighting in the street are too completely different things

The notion boxing doesnt work with gloves off is daft. Boxing has existed for a long time with no gloves before gloves were introduced. the guard is not open. ive sparred bare knuckle several times before in closed sessions and it makes no difference gloves on or off. in thailand they still fight bare knuckle and ive seen many fights like this, ok its the ring but if you can defend punches in the ring bare knuckle you can do it outside too..

The guard is definately open, unless you are suggesting that your fist can cover your entire head. If you imagine the space where your huge 14oz gloves cover and take away the 14oz gloves there are gaps
A punch in a ring on a glove vs glove has a very limited impact. If I punche a guy who was covering up using his fists, there would be a huge impact
For the record, I also used to fight bare knuckle several years ago

Id like to add that i have no issue with wing chun though and have no points to make as to its effectiveness either good or bad. just defending boxings corner.

I too love boxing, but it has its limits just like every other martial art
There have been very good London streetfighters who are ex-boxers, but you either have to be of a very good level in boxing to pull it off in an aggressive confrontation or you have to use other arts (especially if the person is kicking/kneeing you)

[Ghost]

yeah i wouldnt want to just have boxing in a street fight, though i would imagine it would see you take care of the average attacker. of course having more than boxing like you say is a distinct advantage.

i understand what you are saying about the guard but i dont think i know of a system that deals with punching range better when specifically looking at punches, be they gloved or bare knuckle. ive never had problems parrying punches without gloves.
as you have studied bare knuckle boxing as well i assume you know the changes to the guard that go along with the removal of gloves in boxing. ie hands open etc.

[Red Rum]

yeah i wouldnt want to just have boxing in a street fight, though i would imagine it would see you take care of the average attacker. of course having more than boxing like you say is a distinct advantage.

i understand what you are saying about the guard but i dont think i know of a system that deals with punching range better when specifically looking at punches, be they gloved or bare knuckle. ive never had problems parrying punches without gloves.
as you have studied bare knuckle boxing as well i assume you know the changes to the guard that go along with the removal of gloves in boxing. ie hands open etc.

When I fought bare knuckle I wasn't trained in boxing (which is maybe why I lost a few fights!), but I will take your word for it that there is a guard change. Certainly this is why UFC fighters don't tend to use the traditional boxing guard.

A good boxer would certainly knock someone on their ass with a punch, but the point is that in an aggressive confrontation where someone might just grab and choke you or bite you etc, a lot of arts struggle

If it was a set format (ie a controlled fight) then boxing, karate etc are most certainly superior to wing chun

[Ghost]

When I fought bare knuckle I wasn't trained in boxing (which is maybe why I lost a few fights!), but I will take your word for it that there is a guard change. Certainly this is why UFC fighters don't tend to use the traditional boxing guard.

A good boxer would certainly knock someone on their ass with a punch, but the point is that in an aggressive confrontation where someone might just grab and choke you or bite you etc, a lot of arts struggle

If it was a set format (ie a controlled fight) then boxing, karate etc are most certainly superior to wing chun

yeah and i wont argue with you about the wing chun aspect i have very little experience with it and wont comment on something i dont really know.

i basically agree with everything you are saying anyway.

[tjwingchun]

If it was a set format (ie a controlled fight) then boxing, karate etc are most certainly superior to wing chun

Sorry cannot agree with this statement, I repeatedly say my interpretation is that Wing Chun is simply applied personal body mechanics related to violent confrontation. I have in the past applied my understanding of Wing Chun to streetfighting (personally) and NHB via a student (also BJJ blue belt) who was competing.

There are many similarities throughout the martial styles/arts, fighting is fighting. On the flip side there are a vast differences which allow people to make their OWN choices and preferences, just as with fashion everybody has free will, though many have closed minds and lack ability.

Going back to the title of this thread "Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness"

My view is that the forms give you the syllabus, the first thing you learn is to understand the structure of the body via the stance, develop a strong straight posture through the back from shoulder, hip to knee, and the weight on the heels with the toes in creates two stances, left and right that starts strengthening the legs in preparation for knowledge of using the legs independently.

The second aspect is to understand the centreline and innergate area, recognising the weakness of the vulnerable points that run down the centre of your body and therefore knowing what you should target on your opponent.

Thirdly you are taught the mechanics of punching, by using the bottom three knuckles you form a straight structure running down the bones, from the point of contact (knuckles) through the wrist to the elbow which is the focal point of the energy created by the muscles in the shoulder (the forearm is merely an extension).

By punching from the centreline this will block out punches thrown from the shoulder.

So in the first lesson Wing Chun teaches the importance of structure, the weaknesses of the body and how to develop a strong punch that has defensive attributes while being used offensively.

90% of street confrontations will be dealt with by "lesson one", that has been my personal experience and that of the students I have taught over 24 years, yet I still am learning after 34 years of practice, why do I keep going? because every time I train, I learn something, I am never satisfied with the knowledge I have and never complacent or arrogant enough to think I am invulnerable to ANYBODY who has the intention to attack me.

My view of Wing Chun is that it is the simple science of fighting, an explanation, a syllabus that allows me to get others to understand what I understand, not the ONLY or BEST way, just one way.

I find its language most suits my personality, its techniques fit my physique and its concepts reflect my thinking.

[Red Rum]

Sorry cannot agree with this statement, I repeatedly say my interpretation is that Wing Chun is simply applied personal body mechanics related to violent confrontation. I have in the past applied my understanding of Wing Chun to streetfighting (personally) and NHB via a student (also BJJ blue belt) who was competing.
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You are most certainly welcome to disagree with the statement, but there aren't many wing chun guys who survive in that set format. Ive seen wing chun used in aggressive fights and wing chun destroyed the aggressors.

Yet, the wing chun I have seen used in 'sport' formats (ie cage, ring, matted area) has failed.

I compete in tournaments and use wing chun only as a sensitivity tool. Fut saos aren't allowed, stamping palms and stamping kicks aren't allowed, so there is no point fighting using an art which has been limited by rules. Therefore I usually use BJJ or MT to do the job

[jubaji]

. Ive seen wing chun used in aggressive fights and wing chun destroyed the aggressors.

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video?

[Red Rum]

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video?

It was incidents involving friends/students/training partners when we were out clubbing, but there is CCTV footage that exists of fights with wing chun guys. (I work for the police in Britain and watch CCTV everyday)

Indeed, there is a bouncer in a nightclub in Putney who was only ever taught wing chun. He is not a big guy and still destroys troublemakers everytime

One of our Portsmouth students is a doorman down south and is an expert in BJJ and wing chun. He has never lost a fight. Now I agree that a lot of his confrontations would involve BJJ but wing chun will play a part

[jubaji]

...................video?