Yang-style Tai Chi Chuan

[ttruscott]

Well, I do. My teacher calls me a teacher of beginners.

I can approximate the outer form and have learned a fair bit of theory but I have no taiji magic like my teacher is developing and his teacher has in abundance.

[Hong, head of our lineage, liked to say that if there is a physical manifestation of your taji, there is a physical explanation for how it worked rather than a mystical energy one. But he also like to talk about good taji being so smooth and coordinated and efficient that the effects it has on people should seem like magic.]

My karate training may be fading out of my forms but it is still controlling my actions when I touch hands with someone, hence, no taji.

Ted

[Ghost]

so you are classed as a beginner after 5 years?
have you learnt anything at all yet :S

[ttruscott]

so can you hit harder using a karate reverse punch or a tai chi strike?

May because of my many years in karate, Master Chen ZH refuses to categorize any move in Yi Lu as a 'punch' per se. He often says it is not the forward obvious hand that is hurting him but your back hand.

Anyway as a 5th year beginner, I have no taiji skills at all. Master Chen looked at my Yi Lu and said: "Well, I don't see any karate in it but I don't see any taijij either!"

So, definitely, if I want to punch I use karate principles.

Maybe next year...

Ted

[Ghost]

this is down to not doing any wasteful movements or muscle contractions. i agree that karate is very wasteful, its also very powerful though.

so can you hit harder using a karate reverse punch or a tai chi strike?

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by ttruscott
Tai chi is a method of movement and creation of force against an opponent without generating power.

Totally impossible
Power = Work/time
work is force*distance.

you cant create force without power.

Even the idea of a "powerless force".

Does the sun rise in the East? No, of course it doesn't - it only looks that way.

What we are talking about here is perceived power.

When I do a karate reverse punch, I feel my muscles working accelerating and I feel the hit.

With a properly done taiji technique, the amount of 'work' if feel my muscles do is wayyyy down whereas the amount of effect or "power perceived or felt" by my partner is magnified above normal.

effort down, effect up

It has nothing to do with the physics of creating power but with the efficiency of that power creation - the efficiency of the creation of the power which gets more power with less effort and the efficiency of its effect, increased power into the person multiplied by proper manipulation of his structure to enhance the effect.

Ted

[Ghost]

Totally impossible
Power = Work/time
work is force*distance.

you cant create force without power.

Even the idea of a "powerless force".

Tai chi is a method of movement and creation of force against an opponent without generating power.

[peppi]

chen style is more like external martial art, and yang style is more internal

Interesting thought

slowing down makes you easily to find out which point is less power.that's the basic purpose of slowness.

The real purpose is the principle that if you aim to develop speed first do it slow and if you want to develop power first do it soft and light

[ggg214]

i think in yang lu chan's age, when one wants to creat a new style and make it accepted by public, there is only one way :defeat anyone who challenges.even in 1980s, if you wanted to open a class to public, even you just taught your students in public parks, you would received many challenges from visitors. if you lost, you left.
based on this, yang style couldn't just be healthy. it must be better in martial applications.
just regarding the forms of yang and chen, we should say that chen style is more like external martial art, and yang style is less. this means yang style is more internal. on the way from external to internal, yang style is going further.
furthermore, does slow mean less applicable and more healthy? i don't think so. taiji requires any point on a circle has the same power. slowing down makes you easily to find out which point is less power.that's the basic purpose of slowness.

[peppi]

Regarding the martial aspect of Tai Chi check out the dvd by master Yang Jun

[kanik]

I'm interested in training in Tai Chi Chuan (for spirituality/health/combat application), and have been doing research on its philosophies and various styles. It seems the Chen style was the one best known for its martial aspect and was the most strenuous in its training. Even Yang Lu Chan the "Ever-victorious" started with the Chen style. But, as I understood it, even though Yang Lu Chan fought using the Chen style, after he settled down he actually modified it into the less rigorous, more flowing, and primarily meditative Yang-style to teach to the general public as a path to greater health and better energy flow.

So, my question is, how effective is Yang-style vs Chen-style in martial application? I worry about this because most of the schools that teach Tai Chi Chuan seem to focus on the Yang-style. I don't know if this is because they think Yang Lu Chan used the Yang style in his duels or because the current trend is to practice Tai Chi Chuan more for health and less for its martial application...? I want to learn Tai Chi Chuan in all it's aspects, and frankly I could be doing a lot of other stuff for health alone, so it is the ideal balance between health and martial application that draws me to Tai Chi Chuan... perhaps even leaning a tad more towards the martial aspect.

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

I do yang style tai chi, and I have good teachers, and so for me, it is literally the best martial art I have ever done, and beleive me, I have gone through a lot. Thats my personal oppinion though. In yang style tai chi, there are two forms, the old yand and the new yang, the old yand is the form made by Yang Lu'chan, and it isnt ALL slow movements, though it does have some, it also has explosive fa jing movements (if you have a teacher that knows how to teach them to you), and the new yang form is the one most people do for health, it is all slow, and was made by Yang Lu'chans... ummm... grandson? I cant rememebr, But he's name was Yang chen fu, and he made it as a form so that the general public could learn tai chi. Hence the reason its all slow, so it is suitable for everyone, and it is primarily a health form. Though that doesnt mean its martial benefits and application are any less, they are just more abstract. Learning the Chen fu (new) form, makes it MUCH easier to learn the old form (lu'chan). Also proper tai chi training, isnt ALL forms either, it isnt even just forms and push hands, but they have a good amount of other training methods as well. Also if you find a good teacher, you get all the knowledge of pressure points, how to use them for health, and how to use them for hurt. You learn the fighting and the healing with a good teacher, self healing and other people. Tai chi is really such a great and extremely detailed martial art.

[kingoftheforest]

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

While Chen style does incorporate a stomp, which therefore puts it outside of Tai Chi's rule of no dead movement, it does generate the same force.

However due to the stomp being a dead movement it is not as efficient.

As someone said Tai Chi isn't about technique it's conceptual.
The movements are just a basic outline to be used.

A lot of MA's generate the same amount of power it's just how you get there and how efficiently you do it that changes.

[ttruscott]

Tai chi is a method of movement and creation of force against an opponent without generating power.

It is not technique based as every technique can be tai chi or not tai chi depending on how the movement was generated in the body.

The practitioner does not feel like he is creating power but the opponent feels that he has been hit with irresistible power. This is internal creation of movement.

it is not the style that teaches tai chi deeper than outer movement, it is the teacher.

Ted

[peppi]

Is Yang-style capable of applying Tai Chi Chuan's martial aspect with the same or higher efficiency as Chen-style?

Definitely.

[sherwinc]

i really love this FOUL and UNFAIR techniques of Tai Chi Chuan Sword unexpected attack......

i often used this kind of unexpected sword attack.......

[Jazzshredder86]

It just seems that the Yang style was purposefully tailored to be like a Tai Chi Chuan-lite for health.

Not true. Yang Lu-Ch'an was interested in Taijiquan for mainly martial reasons. Just because he got rid of some of the stomping, high kicking, external aspects of Chen style doesnt make it less effective, just less outwardly "scary" looking.