Chi is Real Brothers ignore the skeptics

[Thai Bri]

Is that why people get mugged/jumped and generaly pounced on day after day?

[Broadsword2004]

I would not call chi mystical necessarily, mystical purely is like if there is no scientific basis behind it; for chi science does somewhat support it. Like I said, look at the electrical force. Look at light even!! That is really weird, and Plank's Dual-Slit Experiment. Also, look at quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics has never predicted anything wrong, yet no one understands how it works because all logic breaks down at that level.

What I think is that chi is too monopolized these days; too many fake chi artists out there trying to get attention. I think using true science for chi would be like, well, like say if someone is trying to tip-toe across a floor, involuntarily, they focus their chi upwards, it is said. And if someone tries to move you, you focus it downwards. You try to make yourself as heavy as possible, whether you believe in chi or not, involuntarily. What I think they should do is try to detect like the flow of the electrons and such on such a person; maybe it is like magnetism that holds the person down or something (people who can supposedly control their chi enough so that multiple people can't move them). None of that is mystical I would think, it is just yet to be fully explained. But so are a lot of scientific things. I mean, it is magnetism that keeps us from falling to the center of the earth at this very moment.

[Tom Yum]

Like I said, look at the electrical force. Look at light even!! That is really weird, and Plank's Dual-Slit Experiment. Also, look at quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics has never predicted anything wrong, yet no one understands how it works because all logic breaks down at that level.

I mean, it is magnetism that keeps us from falling to the center of the earth at this very moment.

Magnetic Force????????

Actually, it is the normal force that keeps us from falling to the center of the earth. It is equal to and opposite the gravitational force. It also depends on the material that you are standing on....

As you stand on the ground, you are in static equilibrium. You are not moving toward the center of the earth or away from the surface because the sum of gravitational force on you and you on the ground (normal force) = 0.

If the sums of these forces was equal to something other than 0, you would either begin accelerating toward the earth or away from the surface, depending on the scalar differences of the forces.

On top of that, human substances are generally less dense than the rocks and metals found on the earth's crust. These dense materials exert a force on your weight (over your surface to surface contact area) equal to and opposite your weight.

In materials of lesser density, mud, water, jello, pool of ky-jelly etc. the material cannot provide a bouyant force equal to your weight (gravitational force)....so there is a net force acting on your body that causes you to accelerate toward the earth.

Electro-magnetic forces affect conducting materials (capable of storing and transfering charge) at the visible level and particles at the atomic level. Organic materials (made of carbon) are not good at storing and conducting charge, when you get near a magnet do you find yourself stuck to it?

[Broadsword2004]

Nope, but I am talking about the ability of your particles to go THROUGH the ground. If you stand on Jello or water even, you don't go through the particles of that matter; the particles of those forms of matter are just not stuck together tight enough to hold your weight, so they break aprt and you go through. But the jello particles do not go through your skin; nor do the water particles. If there was no magnetism holding your particles together, technically, the particles making up your body are far enough apart to be mashed to the size of a baseball. It is because of the positive and negative forces of the particles that prevent this. While standing on the ground, technically, if all you were was just particles with no electrical charge to them, you'd slip right through the ground. And the ground wouldn't have to open up or anything. You'd just go right through it, because your particles----your protons and electrons (neutrons are a proton with an electron)-----would just slip right through all the particles making up the ground since they are so far apart. Now if the gravitational force could exceed the electrical force, it would probably be like the jello or mud, the ground would just break open as you go pulled through (or actually, since you're flesh, you'd probably just turn into hamburger meat)., and it'd pull, or keep trying to pull, your particles straight through to the center of the earth. However, the electrical force is thousands of times stronger than the graviational force, so even though the graviational force keeps trying to pull you to the earth's center, the electrical force prevents you from slipping through the ground. But if your particles, being as far apart as they really are, had no electrical charge, and the ground had no electrical charge, you'd slip straight on through; your whole body would go through the solid ground, if you get what I mean. However, that could never happen, because if the electrical force disappeared, the whole planet might fall apart, unless gravity could hold it together. But gravity wouldn't hold the people and animals on it together, just the planet itself.

[Broadsword2004]

And HOW is that "a load of crap?"That is science. Dude, look at a magnet. What do you think pulls two magnets together or repulses them???? Positive and negative forces attract each other, hence if you take the positive side of one magnet and the negative side of another magnet and try to push them together, they pull each other together. But if you try to push two positive sides or two negative sides together, they repel. That is how matter is. All matter is held together by the electrical force. Read up more on physics.

What I was saying about the chi then, is, perhaps there is some way in which the mind can control those electrical forces. But that was just a theory I made up. HOW the mind would control them, I have no clue. But since we don't know WHAT the electrical forces are (no physicist can tell you WHAT the positive force or negative forces actually ARE; they're just forces is all we know) and also we don't fully know HOW the brain works, I said maybe such a theory is probable. But I also said, there is a load of phony-balony crap out there too. And also, the brain maybe just be a really really really complex computer. So who knows? Personally, I plan to just go over to Asia and find some of these "chi masters" and see if what they have to show is real or not.

But that is modern physics knowledge what I said about your particles.

[sqai]

kungfu is a religion as well as a fighting style..

Actually your wrong on both counts.

Kung Fu is neither religion or martial art. Kung Fu in Chinese means energy and time. Anyone who practices their art diligently, be it soccer, or tuba playing can be said to "kung fu". This misconception has been around along time in the west, so I can see how you would fall into the trap. Martial Technique in Chinese is Wu Su. Also sometimes spelled Wu Shu.

[Tom Yum]

But if your particles, being as far apart as they really are, had no electrical charge, and the ground had no electrical charge, you'd slip straight on through; your whole body would go through the solid ground, if you get what I mean.

Great job at BS ing!

You would NOT slip through the ground. Without EM forces to keep your body's molecules together, you would become gas like and diffuse throughout the air.

Gravity would act against your vaporized molecules and pull you toward the ground.

Your molecules would accelerate to the ground and collide with the ground (KE = PE), maybe bounce a few times as your kinetic energy slowly gets absorbed into the ground and eventually scatter around the ground like marbles until friction slows you to a hault.

[Tom Yum]

But since we don't know WHAT the electrical forces are (no physicist can tell you WHAT the positive force or negative forces actually ARE.

Wrong again.

[Thai Bri]

Just think! Chi is like a donut! It IS real! It HAS great power! And yet science cannot define it!!!!!!!

But Homer Simpson can?

[Broadsword2004]

Tom Yum, I had stated that in regards to your particles slipping through the ground, that that was just an explanation for the sake of the argument. Of course you would just turn into gas. It was just a hypothetical argument; basically, if your particles could all remain in their spot and the particles of the ground remained in place, but the electrical forces disappeared (which technically would cause them to fly apart, but for the sake of the argument I'm having them stay together), then you would still slip right through the ground.

And no, we do not know what the electrical forces are. If we do, then tell me, WHAT is a positive force. WHAT is it? And WHAT is a negative force???
And WHAT is gravity even?? The idea of it being a curve in space-time is just a theory, no one even knows if that is true or not. Science does NOT know what light really is, or what the positive and negative forces of electricity really are.

[Tom Yum]

Tom Yum, I had stated that in regards to your particles slipping through the ground, that that was just an explanation for the sake of the argument. Of course you would just turn into gas. It was just a hypothetical argument; basically, if your particles could all remain in their spot and the particles of the ground remained in place, but the electrical forces disappeared (which technically would cause them to fly apart, but for the sake of the argument I'm having them stay together), then you would still slip right through the ground.

And no, we do not know what the electrical forces are. If we do, then tell me, WHAT is a positive force. WHAT is it? And WHAT is a negative force???
And WHAT is gravity even?? The idea of it being a curve in space-time is just a theory, no one even knows if that is true or not. Science does NOT know what light really is, or what the positive and negative forces of electricity really are.

Take away electrostatic forces, dipole-dipole interactions, weak hydrogen bonding, and van der waals weak forces.

All molecules become gas-like, but are still under the influence of gravity and will still seperate by density. Gaseous organic molecules will collide with inorganic ones, maybe react or maybe undergo elastic/inelastic collisions.

Take away all electro-magnetic forces and you still have the influence of gravity, except molecules break down into atoms.

Gravity is an attractive property that Newton observed and tested. His data produced repeatable results, which are repeated today in Highschool/College Physics labs (i.e. Atwood Machine) with amazing precision despite low-tech equipment. The discovery of gravity is backed by over 200 years of experimental research and data. Theoretical physicists say that gravitons are particles below the subatomic level that are responsible for attractive forces. True this is theory, but you have to start some where.

True, much about light is still unknown because of the wave-particle duality. I suppose this will be a challenge for those investigating optics and optical properties of materials.

[Broadsword2004]

I think I made a mistake in my last post, if all the forces disappeared, I don't think you'd become gas, because gas is still the particles held together, just loosely (I think).

Yeah; the point that I was making about light and gravity and such then are that like you say, we know they are there, and we know the properties of them pretty much with great precision, but it is beyond our comprehension at the moment as to WHAT they actually are. I was reasoning maybe chi could be some force tied in with like the electrical forces like that. Because since we aren't totally sure of how the body fully works, maybe it could somehow control parts of the electrical force somehow or something.

I dunno, it was just a theory I came up with. I suppose the main problem with chi is that it is not necessarily a "force" that scientists can prove exists, without knowing what it actually is (like light and gravity and magnetism and such). So I guess until that day comes, if it ever does, chi arguments will be thrown back and forth. My idea though was jsut to reason maybe chi could be explained scientifically, without being all mystical. It has been observed that the body has reserves of strength usually untapped. Like mothers who havel lifted cars off their children and such. The idea there then is, if the woman could train in martial arts, and then trained to be able to call upon that kind of strength when necessary to fight, I guess. Maybe chi is like a special untapped physical strength people have.

I would like to personally go and see like those monks that supposedly can walk around and "be fine" in freezing weather while not wearing really anything except a robe, just to see if that kinda stuff is real. And see if I can find a master who can't be moved by multiple people. However, instead of people maybe tie a bull to him instead (cuz the people could be hired to fake it). And also see if I can train in those arts myself to see if they're (chi) is real or not.

There was also that guy on a Discovery Channel special, who does all sorts of mind over matter stuff, like tearing up phone books with his bear hands and so forth; he just says he "really believes he can do it" and then just does it; so who knows.

[Tom Yum]

I think I made a mistake in my last post, if all the forces disappeared, I don't think you'd become gas, because gas is still the particles held together, just loosely (I think).

There was also that guy on a Discovery Channel special, who does all sorts of mind over matter stuff, like tearing up phone books with his bear hands and so forth; he just says he "really believes he can do it" and then just does it; so who knows.

I should have clarified; without the forces you would become vapor-like, not a gas.

Keep your open mind.

[Uke]

Hi Brothers,

Indeed chi is real and it is the life force which compounds us all.

Once one develops and manipulates chi he is able to utilize it protect
himself from danger. The chi can help build the 6 th sense that our
ancestors once had but have lost since we became "civil".

I recall after performing a heavy chi kung session i packed my bags and
went to the airport. All of a sudden as I placed my bags through customs.

I could feel my 6 th sense kicking in and telling me that my bags would be lost
When i arrived on the otherside and went to collect my bags they had been
lost in transit..

Unfortunately as humans we must learn to trust our own animal instincts and
this is chi.

I myself believe in chi. Deeply. There is however a problem with how chi is presented. Most instructors who teach chi exercises LOVE, and I stress LOVE the art of mystery and phrasing instructions in poetic words. Because of this, most Americans cannot and do not relate because we like clear and precise direction, not prose and poetry that will lead you in the right direction if you meditate long enough on the words and their meaning.

In nearly every instance I've seen, Tai Chi/Chi Kung instructors use analogies and stories to convey concepts and techniques. Not everyone can appreciate that. In my opinion, its part of chinese culture to tell stories. Its seen in the very writing that they use. Their words are more like pictures.

Western culture is the opposite. Its cut and clear. Black and white. And the truth is many people don't want to spend time deciphering the "hidden" meanings when they feel their time would be better suited practicing the techhniques. I agree to a degree, but I also realize that the movements in Tai Chi/Chi Kung were made to immluate the natural forces of nature, like wind, water and the void. Learning the correct calibration of body movement and mechanics adds to the power of any technique. Chi is more than just some "mystical" notion. It is a sixth sense, but because its taught and presented as almost a magical quality. many shy away from such ideas. I assure all of you it is not magical. It is "understanding" of the highest order, as I was always taught, all magic disappears with understanding.

Humans, like other wild animals, have abilities that defy and exceed what our dull senses are capable of registering. Like sharks, we can "feel" a stare because of the energy that comes from being focused upon. Like a fly, we can sometimes dodge an unseen attack because we feel the change in the air pressure around us. Like a dog, we can "hear" danger before it is upon us, not because we hear gunshots or swords being unsheathed, but because we hear sounds associated with either haste or stealth. Does this seem like "magic"? Or does it sound like senses developed beyond what 99% of the population is capable of? Its VERY possible, and thats where the mediation comes into play. That where the "stillness" comes into play. That's where the understanding of concepts come into play. Practice, practice and more practice of the most tedious, repeatitive exercises that don't pay off until you master them. Is that magic?

There is always another level. I am a firm believer in that school of thought. But how many dedicated students are willing to practice just one technique for 10 years until they have it perfected? And of those who are willing, how many have the qualified instruction necessary to achieve that level? I've said it before and I'll say it again, patience, conditioning and understanding are the necessary components to be the best at anything. Many are lucky to have just 1 out of the 3 in their lifetimes. Before Bruce Lee, most Europeans and Americans thought the martial arts were just karate and judo. Now that we've moved on and seen that Lee was just a drop in the ocean, how can we go back to believing that we have seen and know all that there is?

[Tom Yum]

There is always another level. I am a firm believer in that school of thought. But how many dedicated students are willing to practice just one technique for 10 years until they have it perfected? And of those who are willing, how many have the qualified instruction necessary to achieve that level?

Muhammad Ali and his jab