Does anyone Know?

[doofis]

hi

Wow, thanks for this discussion. interesting questions and answers on this 'hybrid' wing chun.

Sihing, curious have you ever plated chi sau with someone outside your school/type of wing chun (with 'hard' wing chun) with someone similar to your level. If so, what were your experiences with differences. vtguy..howabout you, have you ever played chi sao with people from other lineages? What differences were there.


Cheers

[sihing]

Doofis,
No I haven't had that pleasure yet of rolling with another WC player outside my own lineage. You see, coming from a small, isolated city like I did, there wasn't any other WC schools in the area, so it wasn't possible at that time. Since moving to Calgary, I still have not had that opportunity, but a few of the other students have in the school, and they had great experiences too. They were able to counter and control every technique/control applied to them in Chi-sao by the other WC players, most of which had much more experience than these aforementioned students in our academy. Also, when GM Cheung was visiting Canada in 94', himself and one of his top students, Joe Sayah, did some chi-sao with two of Master Lewadny's top students. Without giving away to many details, GM Cheung was thoroughly impressed with the skill level of these students, one of which was a female and was able to counter/control some of GM Cheung's attacks while engaged in chi-sao. The other student was able to dominate Joe Sayah doing chi-sao, who is now a master level student in GM Cheung's association.

Sihing

[vt guy]

Doofis,
Now I don't have as much training in WC as "sihing" does, but I did practice another form of WC in the past. From my previous club, I was lead to believe that chi sao was something done in a controlled manner meaning that you have this type of trap or control and that was it. There wasn't any type of counter to this trap which I found wasn't real because it lead me to believe that chi sao was something that wasn't alive and changing. In the system I do now, there is always counters to any type of trap or control the other person attempts. If you're slow or your reaction isn't there then you've been 'shut down', meaning that there isn't anything that you can do before the other person hits you, if you try to defend yourself a hole is created and the other person fills it with another hit. Any type of attack or defense with a person whose really sensitive is no use because every move you make is a hole that the other person fills. Now I practiced the other system for a couple of years and I thought that I was pretty good, at least my instructor kept on telling me this, but the first time I worked with another wc friend, from the club I'm with now, I was nothing compared to him. My friends chi sao was much better and he did his system about the same time as I had done mine, but his training was much better, which lead me to try his club. I told my instructor that I was going to try another wc club and he got really mad. I wasn't sure if he was mad at the fact that I was questioning his system or that I wanted to go try another club. He didn't seem to care about my best interest, so I left. Right before I left he told me that only way that he would accept me back would be to apologize to him and his sifu and never doubt the system again. I laughed when I heard this because it was clear that he didn't care about what I wanted. That's what I got to experience.
I think that the only way to experience what's out in the world is to go out and meet others who share the same love in MA as you do. To only stay within your school is to say something like staying in your own house and to listen to what your parents say and take that as the truth rather than going out into the world to find your own truth. There are so many people out there that have knowledge, no one person contains it all, no one. To go out and meet others allows you to be interconnected into the martial arts community, it allows you to make new friends and learn something that you never knew before. From the words of a Zen master " you must first empty your cup before you can have a taste of mine"

What's your experiences Doofis?

Vt guy

[sihing]

vt guy,
The system I study also has counters for all the controls learned in chi-sao. As a matter of fact today Sifu and I were showing some of the students how to counter a control technique in a parallel armed/front stance position. We also showed them the many variations of each counter, and explained why and when each one of them is applied, a very alive activity to say the least. The students had a look of excitment on their faces like, "WOW is this stuff ever cool". We do this to stimulate their thinking and to let them know the learning never stops..Problem is sometimes a student may not have enough understanding to realize that there is a system to the learning pattern. First one has to walk before they can learn to run. We recently had a student in the school that had allot of potential, but because of his pre-conceived notions and bad advice from people he didn't even know well, he left the school. He made assumptions about how things were being done and the way things were being taught, and thought he knew better, although he had only a few years of experience, as compared to the 40+yrs of experience my Sifu has. One learns through trial and error, and a few years vs 40+yrs doesn't compare if you ask me. I always said to myself that first I would not judge the system until I learned it all, and second I would not judge my own ability until I learned it all. I can honestly say that from the day I tested for my level 10(which is Sifu level in my system) until now, I have improved and am a more knowledgeable/skillful Martial artist/Instructor. It is unfortunate vt guy that you had a bad experience with your previous WC school, maybe the right questions were not asked or maybe your mind was not open to the answers??

Sihing

[vt guy]

sihing,

While you are right that one learns through trial and error, we each must ask ourselves what we want from our training. We all want something different, some want the self defense, some want the fitness, some want the 'kung fu life' as Moy Yat taught his students. That's great that you never questioned your training and felt that you had to complete your training before you could make judgements sihing, but I feel that one should always question his training for himself to believe that his training is going in the right path, not to be lead on blind faith. As I said in my last post my friend trained about the same time as I had, but his training was much better I thought. Now if both of us had the same amount of training time and his skills were better than mine why wouldn't I want to learn what he is learning? What he was doing was more effective and my purpose of training is to learn effective self defense. I'm not there learning how to do dance steps.

Your right about the fact that learning never stops even if you have completed the system, but to learn from others allows you to absorb different approaches to your learning. If you could learn from Yip Man wouldn't you want to or is Master Lewadny enough?

As with my past experience, I asked many question, but the answers were not there, I had to find my own answers to my questions. Without answers I cannot be 'open' to the answers. I felt that once I made it to a certain point in my training I was left alone, like my instructor didn't have to look after me anymore. I was teaching class before I left and students responded better to the classes that I lead compared to the instructor, what does that tell me?

With the students that you were teaching, did they have previous training in other WC, do they know anything about chi sao, do they have anything to compare it to besides what you teach them. If you didn't know the difference between an apple and orange, I could tell you anything and you would believe me.

For your ex-student, maybe he didn't like the way he was being treated at your academy, maybe he wanted something else that your academy didn't provide for him, who knows. One doesn't need 40+ years to know that the environment you're in is good or bad, it's just a feeing. Now did this ex-student leave on good or bad terms? Did you care about what he wanted or did that not matter? Now my current instructor is open to any kind of questions and he can actually answer them to the fullest. He's open to students training at other places because he knows that they if want to come back they will and his door is always open. He teaches for the love of WC, not the $. He's open to meeting other practitioners, where my other instructor said he was, but actually wasn't. People in this world do things for different reasons, but I know what I'm training in right now is what I've been looking for.

Vt guy

[couch]

"We recently had a student in the school that had allot of potential, but because of his pre-conceived notions and bad advice from people he didn't even know well, he left the school. He made assumptions about how things were being done and the way things were being taught, and thought he knew better, although he had only a few years of experience, as compared to the 40+yrs of experience my Sifu has. One learns through trial and error, and a few years vs 40+yrs doesn't compare if you ask me."

This all started because I chose to talk about your Sifu and system anonymously, without stating any names, on a public forum. I got halled into the office because of it - and now here we are again. So now you want to bring me up on a public forum. I have more than a few years experience. I have over 10 years martial arts experience - Kung-Fu, Karate, Wing Chun. I don't make assumptions about the way things are being run/taught - I saw with my own eyes. This is part of life: living and moving on. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't bring me up in your conversations - anonymously online or otherwise. I haven't said anything bad about yourself or your academy. There are many great people there at the academy that I will always have respect for, but it's amazing at how many people who were your friends turn their back on you when you leave. I take the high road while my story lives on, I see.

Sincerely,
Couch

[sihing]

vt guy,
It's good that you are happy where you are. Ultimately that is what is important. One could have the greatest of everything in their school and still people will not like certain things or the way things are done. Some also have a different focus, therefore require different things.

Today, MA is big business. The only time a conflict happens is when the $$ becomes more important than the student and the quality of what is being taught. In my kwoon, we try to work with each student individually to find out first why they want to learn Wing Chun. Not everyone is looking for the ultimate fighing style, some just want to learn self-defence and some want conditioning. Once in a while you come across a student that has a sincere desire to learn everything, and do everything that is required to truly master the art, but this is a rarity. Once I started training I was just interested in learning everything I could about the art of Wing Chun, it was and still is very interesting to me, even after all these years. Although I was always curious about other WC styles(I used to read every MA magazine I could find and watched every MA movie available at that time), I trusted my Sifu, in what he said about the history and combat philosophy of the art and in the techniques he taught me. I did ask allot of questions but eventually as a individual I had to figure some of it out myself, in my own head to actually be able to apply the art effectively. I promised myself that I would learn the art through to the end, and not judge it until that happened. Well it happened and I have to report I am not disappointed.

Would I want to learn from Yip Man? Yeah it would be interesting to learn from him in say a seminar environment, but to answer your question I am perfectly satisfied with my Sifu today. As a matter of fact I would have to say the Yip Man has nothing on Sifu in terms of technical knowledge or skill in the art IMO.

As for my previous students, back in Ontario, like I said before there were no other WC schools there in the city I lived in. All I can say is that whenever a demonstration was performed by either myself, Sifu or my Sihing's, everyone was very impressed by the skill level displayed. As for students comparing what we teach to "others", well firstly on what reference point would they use to compare it? I compared what I was learning allot in the early days, and still do today, but still haven't found anything that compares. The comparison part should be done before a student joins a particular club, once that has happened train hard and listen to your instructors, this is the best advice I could give anyone.

The ex-student has the right to believe and do as he pleases, this is a free country. From what I understand he was very happy in his training for the most part, and was close to my Sifu, as a matter of fact he would ask advice of Sifu on many occasions concerning personal matters, to which Sifu was happy to help in any way he could. As far as saying that a environment is good or bad, that is a personal opinion, and like I said before you could have the perfect school and still people will try to find something wrong with it. I'm not going to comment on what terms the student left the school, but every students concerns are our concerns. If a student is unhappy then we try to find a solution to allow that student to enjoy their experience in the academy.

Sihing

[sihing]

Couch,
I would have loved to have kept you out of it, but since you keep changing your name(vt guy, doofis, justabean, and couch) and try to find information about people in my association, I felt compelled to reply. Yes K-----, we all know about all your identities, and for some reason, even though you are no longer with our association, you still seem very curious about us. You should just leave us alone, and concentrate on your training in the school you are in right now, from what I hear you are enjoying it immensely and that's great. Please refrain from trying to "dig up dirt" on people in my association or to discredit us, on this forum and others. Thank you.

Sihing

[vt guy]

sihing,
excuse me, but you DO NOT have a clue who I am. I am not the person you are refering to because I know the person you are refering to. I am writing these threads to find out more about your association because I have experience what it's like in the affiliate association. This is what I got to experience:

I have to clarify some points after thinking about what you said the other day.

1. At this Academy, like all schools in the association, all students must fully accept what Sigung says. He has clearly stated that he has trained in both styles of Wing Chun plus a lot of martial arts before that and put back together the complete, the whole Wing Chun system and that is what our association teaches. What you said the other day flies entirely in the face of that. Anyone who believes that Sigung created his own system of Wing Chun and just calls it complete, who believes there is more to be gained from other styles when they have not mastered our system really cannot train at any school in our assocation because they will learn nothing. I am not putting down other teachers or systems of Wing Chun, but to be a student in this association, you must accept the system, you must accept the truth of what Sigung says without question. To do otherwise is to really to call him a liar and simply there is no true learning if you don't accept the system. This sould be obvious.

You are in no position to do more classes at this Academy and "see if it works for you" while considering going elsewhere. Junior students learn the system. Senior students who have had access to Sigung in person must accept it without question. Simple as that.

2. The last 6 months, you have not come to class much. It's OK if someone has other things to do instead of attending, but a senior student who doesn't attend much obviously is going to have difficulty retaining material much less learning. This isn't a horrible thing as long as one does not blame others or the system for one's lack of progress or confidence in technique. Why should I give someone a hard time if they have little time for Wing Chun? When they have time to work it, there's more than enough classes to get to. I figured that Wing Chun wasn't that important to you lately and the regulars all assumed as much. What I heard from you about your frustration with the lack of new material and other points, that was passing the buck. When a student doesn't attend much and doesn't pay, what right to they have to complain? Zero. I didn't hear you say anything about how your lack of training time was any part of the problem.

I have been so eager to accept your difficulties as a senior student that really I've missed the point until now that you haven't been trying hard for a long time. You needed to spend a lot more time working the techniques. It used to be hard because hardly anyone knew double arm or 8 random, now we have lots doing double arm, controls and slips and stuff I haven't even shown you because you're not around. I heard instead how you would like to see me do various things and make changes and feed you more new material. You don't even come into to class enough to handle and really work what I've shown you and no, senior students don't get new material every week. They aren't supposed to. They work it long and hard and achieve something through that. Do you think you don't need to improve on what you've got?

For someone who does not attend much and hasn't paid in a long time, you seem to think you know how everything should be changed. There's lot of great stuff, but you could not benefit when you're not there. It's not horrible to not have time for Wing Chun, but don't blame me or the system when you're not satisfied. Look to yourself.

3. If you felt you were leading too much and got zero value from the Academy, you should have paid up and left quietly, as if the Academy gained more from your presence then you did from the Academy. You should have tried to get value for yourself, stopped leading, come to more senior classes. Your wife's threat was wrong on so many levels and an apology was in order, not an excuse. Saying it was not intended to be disrespectful does not make it OK. That's not good enough for me or Sigung.

4. Your wife's input on the Academy is not appropriate, especially after rubbing me and Sigung the wrong way. She's an outsider with no standing. Not that I'm not open-minded to input on stretching, but I have better sources to refer to, people who haven't made threats, have actually taken our classes and quite frankly, know a lot more about stretching. I have made changes recently but you wouldn't know.

I have enjoyed teaching you in the past, but you clearly don't fully accept the association's system and want to experiment with other styles of Wing Chun. You are not a fresh junior anymore. You have learned nowhere near the whole system, but surely enough to know better than to doubt Sigung, plus you have had Sigung himself show you enough that you should have zero doubts about going to other styles of Wing Chun. If knowing the truth of the system has been so important to you and yet you doubted, you should have gone to at least one summer camp in Kelowna or Calgary, you should have attended more, you should have asked Sigung to his face about the system and either accept it fully and stayed or not accepted and left. Your doubts indicate you don't get it, not that there's a problem with the system. Doubting him and staying isn't an option. You cannot train with us while we wait around for you to get bored and leave.

This doesn't mean Sigung and I couldn't possibly accept you back someday if you proved to both of us that you would never doubt the system again, never quibble about paying and apologized to both Sigung and myself for doubting the system. I wish you the best in everything.

This is what I got to hear when I chose to try something new, free world right, and if you can find out who wrote this then you might find out who I am. My intentions in writing to you was to find out if this is the way it is in the association and from what I have heard, I have formed my own conclusions. I guess the reason you wrote about your ex-student was to confirm your assumptions, but your assumptions were wrong. I say again I am NOT K-----. For your information K----- did leave you and your association alone and he didn't want to get into this, but you had to mention him. I'm sure if he wanted to discredit you he would, but he didn't.

"Today, MA is big business. The only time a conflict happens is when the $$ becomes more important than the student and the quality of what is being taught."
I guess that's what happened, didn't it! How many people that have left your association come back? If they didn't come back do you think they found something better?

" As a matter of fact I would have to say the Yip Man has nothing on Sifu in terms of technical knowledge or skill in the art IMO."
You think of the self proclaimed "master" Lewadny as the almighty one don't you?

I have left you enough clues to find out who I am sihing and I guess we'll see what you do with the info.

People reading this will form their own conclusions and decide what they think of your association.

Vt guy

[sihing]

To end this never ending story, over the last 15yrs, out of 4,000 students only 2 have been asked to leave the association....Pretty good statistics if you ask me....

Sihing

[vt guy]

That may be true, that they have been "asked" to leave, but I know of more than 2 that have left the association I was with for reasons I "will not say on a public forum". I know that more than 2 that have left your association for their own reasons, not because they were 'asked' to leave. In the association that I was with there was only about 2 people that came to class before I left, out of the couple of hundred that came through the academy. Pretty bad statistics if you ask me...

Vt guy

[doofis]

sihing. I am not Vtguy, or any of the others you mentioned. Try relax and not be so defensive...however I do respect your loyalty to your school, sifu and system. It takes 100% buy-in and belief that the system and sifu are right/effective for you and it looks like you have that, good for you.

VTguy, cooch...i'm glad to hear you have found something that suited you guys more...

Take care,

[couch]

Hey James,
Just a few questions:

1. Who ran into the office and told you about what I'm doing now? Who would know anything about me anymore?

2. Why do you believe that I have used any other name other than Couch or Justabean? As you can see, these other users have voiced for themselves, but I haven't been online in over 2 months posting on any boards until I was brought up. I'm not interested in your association anymore. I haven't been since I gave a sincere thank-you note and left.

3. Do you still talk about me in the club? Private matters of my life were just that: private. Why would you or any other member know anything about my private life that I entrusted to Brian/your Sifu?

I hope things are going well for you and the club. I miss Cornelio, Derek, Mo, big and little Mike, Ian, Bonnie, the list goes on. They were all a great inspiration in life for me. There's only so much room in a card.

Kenton

[sihing]

Kenton,
I too wish you all the best for the future. I cannot help what others do. If someone tells me information about another, then that is their action not mine, I do not ask for information on anyone, it's always volunteered.

The private matters you are talking about are just that private, but if you recall I was also in the office some of the times you and Sifu would discuss these matters, I personally do not go around to anyone discussing your's or anyone's private matters in public, I've got my own life to think about rather than gossiping or spreading private information.

Sihing

[vt guy]

curious

Hey All,

Noticed people are still checking this thread once in a while. Just wondering what your opinons are on this issue between me and "Sihing". I doubt that he is going to bother to reply since he wanted to end the conversation with me the last time, so I'm just curious on what you readers think.