TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[konghan]

Chris,

I began my Martial arts training in 1977, and since this time I have trained in the TMAs of Karate, Chinese kenpo, TKD (just a little),and Arnis (*Arnis the most practical of the four). I have also studied martial sport systems such as Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, a little judo, and a little submission wrestling as well as ROSS.(more closely related to RBSD) I have also studied military combatives, civilian combatives, RBSD, as well as counter terrorism tactics.

I have trained in a TMA art in 6 states, and 3 countries including Japan for 6 weeks. I have been into and watched or participated in many other MA schools including Kung Fu systems. I have trained under a 6th dan who was born and raised in Japan and studied/taught in Japan for 20 years before coming to the U.S.I studied approx 3.5 years under him and all we did was the same format every day- warm up/stretch, floor work, kata, spar. The sparring was the one dimensional tag sparring of witch I described earlier.

I studied under a 5th dan in Okinawa Karate who had been doing it for 25 years and went to Okinawa for a year to study. Although she was incredibly smart, knowledgeable, and creative we did nothing but the usual, floor work, kata, bunki, pre-determined attacks and tag style sparring. Only on occasion did we break from that format.

I studied under another 5th degree black who had trained in Okinawa, and went to China for three years to study MAs and Chinese medicine and had made several trips to the shaolin temple. Under him we never even sparred, we would do kata all session long with maybe some pre-arranged and per-determined drills thrown in. We would spend 30 minutes (or longer) performing a single kata because he was such a perfectionist he would go down the line correcting everyone with each move. It was ridicules. And no one in that class could fight worth a damn. I soon found another place to study, but once again I had to change styles.

Are all these fake commercialized MAs? I think there is some truth to that theory but I think that every time someone sees, or exposes a problem with a martial art they are quick turn to the “it’s fake or commercialized” argument. The above instructors as well as their students who have been with them for several years had no clue of the inefficient methods of teaching they were doing and of course neither did I at the time.

I have been to and watched several KF sessions. Even though their format was different they still did the forms, they still did the pre-arranged drills, the same pre-determined drills and the one-dimensional tag style of sparring. They also did forms and pre-arranged sparring with non-real-world-appropriate weapons. It may have looked different but make no mistake it was essentially functionally the same. I have also had friends who studied these arts and after going with them to training sessions and having long conversations only confirmed what I have been saying.

Unfortunately I have met, studied with, and taught many students who had several years in one of these MAs and still could not really fight well. Some of them might have been good at tournament fighting but not real fighting.

I think it’s incorrect for Konghan s to say that RBSD is a short cut I think that the TMAs is the long cut. RBSD builds incredibly skilled and effective fighters in a much faster time while maintaining a high quality of instruction. Honestly I think many TMA guys make these kind of arguments because they are struggling to argue the relevancy of their systems and really don’t realize that what they have been taught for so many years is built upon a some faulty assumptions, and bad science. They, just like me once upon a time, just don’t know any better, or they are simply, but understandably in denial.

You have a very impressive resume, many TMA are not struggling or arguing the relevancy of their systems but it is more of people like yourself who cannot find answer even in yourself.

Base on what you are pointing out between what you consider as TMA & real fighting system all that you have been saying are contradicting on what you are trying to seek.

Real fighting system, how can a victim react or know what to do if they donot know what their attacker is about to do? just like what you have pointed out. A person comes at you with a kitchen knife, what do you do?

Or, lets' say you live in Bhagdad what percussion do you take to protect yourself?

Even in the use of firearm one must have proper training. what kind of training must they have?, proper posture as to how to hold & aim a gun. How to quickdraw, how not to reload, knowing what type of bullet your weapon need & etc. but the most important part HAVING THE GUTS TO OPEN FIRE ON A HUMAN BEING.

And to be a real good "master" gunman takes years of training as well.

I believe that the real fighting system that you are seeking can only be found in the jungles of Africa or any remote areas away from modernization.

Fighting in real combat means using real weapons no hold bar to the death just like the ancient times which was what it use to be.

Then, may I suggest join the mercenaries & fight in those many third world countries mini wars & there you might find your answer.

Base on what you have learn so far how good a fighter are you now? how good must you be?

[krys]

I have been to and watched several KF sessions. Even though their format was different they still did the forms, they still did the pre-arranged drills, the same pre-determined drills and the one-dimensional tag style of sparring.

There are fighting classes in the WC school I study. My WC instructor is actually a former western boxing champion (army) and the students who come to those classes fight full contact....there isn't anything prearanged ...... Throws and grapling are unfortunately not allowed yet because we don't have any mats for insurance reasons (this will change the day we get a full time place), but anything goes and we don't use headgear.

It took me years to locate a good KF instructor in Europe and I have to travel 50 miles to train with him... all the other WC classes I've seen before were plain ..... Honestly I'd say in all those years I've met very few WC practitioners who are good at fighting but this is because either they are not taking the art seriously (tourists, chikung-hippies, ego suc..rs) or because they were badly taught.... WC has been mostly promoted by peoples who just want to make the bucks.

[jcmack]

Dar,

I hate always seeming to be at odds with you. However, you still seem to be grouping all TMAs together and making a judgement on all of them. Most are watered down. Most are one sided. If not, you would have millions of little war machines running around the world. It would be either a really dangerous place, or a really safe place depending on how you look at it. There are certain traditional systems however that do train to survive and thrive in any situation.

Modern martial arts seem to be watered down for protection. You have so many martial artists who train these days. If a martial artist trains very hard like they did in ancient times, who would want to be part of a dojo or training group? It took a special person to do it then. War was a way of life at that time. Now it doesn't impact our everyday lives (at least most people don't realize it anyway). Most people don't see the neccessity of training that way anymore. Once again, who would train that way now? Not many. So, to preserve the art and to keep cash flow, the arts have been watered down over time. They have become less lethal. They no longer train with the idea of killing or totally incapacitating your opponent as the ultimate end. Tournaments have become a way of life in many TDAs. Unfortunately, tourneys have too many rules to simulate real fights and battles. The way you train is the way you fight.

In this way, I agree with you. However, not all TMAs do this. A few still train very hard. Watered down sparring is kept to a minimum. Training is rougher, with the ultimate goal in mind of totally incapacitating or destroying your opponents. It is these few systems that are the most deadly. They train/program the mind and the body to destroy the opponent. They also have a larger array of techniques to learn from. This goal of the techniques is not as you are thinking. This wide array of techniques is not there to be memorized. They are there to learn how your body and the opponents body works. The ultimate goal is to not use techniques, but rather create your own on the fly using ideas you have learned about how you and your opponents bodies work. The only downside I see to this is that it takes more time to develop this level of ability.

[darrianation]

Konghan,

I am not sure what contradictions you are talking about, but I can tell you there are plenty of contradictions within myself and the MA world.

I have been offered security jobs in Iraq, for pretty good money, but my career and family are more important to me right now than the money. All those jobs I have been contacted about would mean a year in country. Not what I want to do right now in my life. As far as mercenary work, forget it, again to much time away from home. I did spend about a year working security detail for this businessman out of Miami made three tips to Honduras, a trip to panama with him,. I have also worked for others and made trips to Malaysia and a few other places. I have also been involved in humanitarian missions in the Balkans several times. The security business has picked up considerably since 911 but I haven’t had much interest in getting active over seas. I do still dabble in it a little. I am a paid (not much) consultant for a personal and corporate security group out of Phoenix, which is half owned by my cousin. I have written all of their policy and procedures manual for them as well as written their protocols, I have also done this for a company out of San Diego.

As far as what I think of how good of a fighter I am? Hmmmm…I am the kind of guy that doesn’t like to assume anything, so, I don’t assume I can beat anybody, nor do I assume anyone can beat me. Also I am armed all the time, so if someone can beat me, well, I am covered.


Krys

I also like San Shou, I think it’s great. If there were a school near me I would sign up. If you do Arnis and San shou than your awesome. I would hate to meet you in a dark alley. But the WC……Ich.

Jcmack,

All of you guys bring up some good points. As far as me lumping all the TMAs together, guess I tend to do that to often, sorry, but then again if the shoe fits……But if it doeasn’t then you have no need to be offended.

Anyway there is no magic answer or perfect system, all have frailties and flaws, but some are definitely better than others. Most of the problems lies in the structure of the style and the politics of the system that’s why we see so many badly run MAs.

Maybe we should be talking about what makes a good system, and what constitutes a bad one. But then again we probably will be on different sides of debate on that one too. Instead maybe we need to look at this stuff differently. I don’t know if you will agree but I think you are right about the TMAs being for a different breed of men than what we see today in many people. Back in the day Martial artists would work all day, take care of family business , then stay up training most the night. It was Toudy who said that it’s all about the amount of hours you put into it. Didn’t Funakoshi who performed only one kate and practiced it for 3 years often praticing until he collapsed. Or was it 3 katas 1 year. Hmmm….I realy don’t want to run down the stairs and find my Funkoshi book.

Anyway my point is people have families, they have careers, they have friends, and they have hobbies. Our lives are structured so we really don’t have all the time necessary to put into it, our lives are just to busy. So, the TMAs are not meant for us. They are meant for those who are innately mentally and physically suprior and are amazingly self-motivated to spend 40hrs a week training, as well as 40hrs a week at their jobs and still spend time with their kids. These kind of folks are some kind of force to reckoned with. These guys are not the majority of us.

So, what we need is another system for those in the non-elite group, or for us more common folk the guys with the wives, the kids and the careers who can’t afford to train 30-40 hours a week. That’s what we do in the RBSD, we can train the common folk to be every bit as proficient and effective as those old breed of TMA guys, but we can do it in much faster time. This is called efficiency.

[AlexJitsu]

Darrianation, people who are serious about Kung fu (for fighting) do San Shou for their sparring training. This is what they do at the Shaolin temple, and at most Wushu schools.

If TMAs were trained as good as San Shou is, they would kick ass.

[krys]

This is what they do at the Shaolin temple, and at most Wushu schools.

Do they really still practice fighting at the shaolin temple? Which shaolin temple? I don't want to sound offensive but I heard many bad stories abound training in those temples.

Modern wushu is plain BS. Honestly I've met only one reasonably good (modern) wushu fighter in my whole life, even their forms suck. The reason was he'd done a lot of savate....

Many wushu instructors are former dancers, actually KF gets a bad reputation because of wushu. When peoples see modern wushu they think it is KF.

[chris davis 200]

Thankyou for the responce darrianation,

The experience base you cover is impressive but heavily focused in Karate and Karate like Martial arts. I have no problem with Karate but do not really think it is the benchmark by which all TMA styles, schools and systems should be judged.

I do not make excusses for many TMA's but also try to explain that many many Modern arts including those taught at the very big organisations hold less ability to produce profficient fighters.

Often we see schools where people attack with a karate like punch hold their hand out until 4 or five strikes have hit - having apparantly no effect on the attacker, then 2 or three locks are applied!! This style of training i have NEVER i repeat NEVER found in Japanese Koryu martial arts or traditional internal chinese systems. I have however found this style in arts like Karate, modern western Ju Jutsu, taekwondo etc. These are problems with the styles not their traditional background.

In all the TMA's i practice (although i hate using that term) we are encouraged to be instinctive, creative and clever. Not robots walking up and down a dojo doing straight punches.

You have a very good argument for some traditional systems - but i must say that it is only some. Thankyou for the interesting insights.

Ref Shaolin:

the Shaolin temple is now just a tourist trap by the chinese government - anybody that believes the boxing styles located in or even mainly around the temple, are delluding themselves unfortunatley. Most of the Top chinese boxers are hidden away or moved to taiwan.

Even chen family village is now a tourist trap allong with the taoist Conplex at Wu Dang mountain.

My teacher says the only way to find REAL chinese martial arts is to either go to Taiwan, or get seriously off the beaten track in mainland china. He has travelled EXTENSIVELY in china and i take his word for it.

Cheers
chris

[krys]

My teacher says the only way to find REAL chinese martial arts is to either go to Taiwan, or get seriously off the beaten track in mainland china.

Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines are also good places to learn chinese martial arts.
I've seen some good CMAs in Malaysia and the Philippines: Sao Lim Athletic association in Penang, Wuqui and other familly stuff too in eastern Malaysia. Beng Kiam NCK in the Philippines. The book "The Fighting arts of Indonesia" by Don Draeger also describes Kuntao and other CMAs in Indonesia.

[chris davis 200]

most definately!!!

Many of then have also 'cross-pollinated' with the indiginous systems to produce something similar but with a different mindset or flavour.

some excellent mixed arts can be found there.

Regards
chris

[darrianation]

You guys keep saying that I am comparing karate to Kung Fu but that isn’t true. I am saying that even though the drills and format are different they still both have some bad habit building exercises and drills. These drills I have already mentioned. Karate and KF as well as many others MAs perform techniques in the air, and a lot of them. They both do a lot of self-defense techniques with the defender knowing what the attacker will do. The defender knows if the attacker is armed and with what strike he will use. So, even if the attack is done at full speed and power the defender still knows what his defense will be because he still knows what the attack is. This is unrealistic training. In real life you do not know if your attacker is armed (so, always assume he is), and you have no idea when or how he will attack, or how much determination he will have or how fierce he will fight.

Now, this is okay to teach beginners with strikes in the air and with pre-arranged defenses so he can learn the mechanics, timing, and application of the technique, but for intermediate students this should be phased out, and for advanced students this type of training shouldn’t even be considered. At this point it should be all about the effective application of the technique or combinations of techniques.

Also, tag styled one-dimensional sparring is rampant in both. I am sure there are some styles or schools that go beyond this from time to time.

So I guess you guys are saying that real non-commercialized schools don’t do techniques in thin air, they don’t do pre-arranged drills or pre-determined drills, or tag/one dimensional sparring. And to date no one has explained to me why the Chinese forms are applicable and the karate katas are not to any degree of satisfaction.

I will give you some examples of further reasons why pre-determined attack/defenses can lead to disaster in the real world.

1) I got mad at a 4th Dan (Shotokan instructor) for saying crap about self-defense and non traditionalists. I finally had enough and called him on the carpet for this and told him he was full of shit and told him I would show him. We sparred but I didn't use karate I didn't do what he expected instead I shot in with a double leg takedown and took him down and as I rolled him to his stomach I pulled my safety knife (he didn't know I had it) and slit his throat (not for real of course).

I had a very good friend who is an 4th dan aikido instructor who I nagged and nagged to spar. He would always decline saying he would hurt me (break my arm). Finally he got tiered of my insistence and agreed to let me punch at him and he would show me his defense. So, instead of throwing the punch like he expected, I shot in for a double leg takedown, and pummeled him into submission (just lightly though). He could not defend against what he didn’t expect.

I also discovered something interesting years ago. When I was working on weapons defenses against knives. If I knew the grip and the strike my partner was going to use regardless of speed and commitment I was able to defend 99.9% of the time with no problem. But if he uses an unknown attack with an unknown grip at full speed with feints, or punches from his non-weapons hand, or kicks as a lead or as follow ups my percentages for successful defenses went way down, somewhere in the 50% range. I am much better now, because I now do more live and unpredictable training.

I learned that grabbing for feints can cost me my life in a real situation, gunting and weaponless defangs did not work 90% of the time when I did not know what, when, or how he would attack, but worked 99% of the time only when I knew the type of attack he was going to use even when he was aggressive and offensive with it.

My students have learned if I stand in front of them with a knife in my hand and attack, they can successfully defend themselves 98-99% of the time. However if I put the knife in my belt and attack them empty handed then I pull the knife when the time and distancing is right for me, when I have the advantage, I can get (stab/slash) them at least 90% of the time. I also do this with other MA friends. However with this type of training they have gotten a lot better.

It is one thing to defend against an attack if you know what’s coming, it’s a whole other ballgame to defend against unknown aggressive and determined attacks.

But I am sure all you guys in real martial arts already know and do this type of training. It’s only those fake commercialized guys that do those ichy punches in thin air, and pre-arranged defenses and drills and only do tag/one dimensional sparring…huh?

[AlexJitsu]

That aikido story was pretty inaccurate. If you're someones friend and you're training with them, and he says "do this", and you do something else, no shit he won't expect a double leg. That's called "cheating"...and don't say, "oh but on the street...", because on the street you expect anything. He was expecting a punch, and nothing else. Also, don't you think it's kinda hoaky that an aikido person got taken down and owned?

My brother does that to me all the time and it pisses me off. For the beginners, it is essential that they can do the technique without any resistance at FIRST, and then with resistance once they can do the movements perfectly 10 times out of 10.

Also, the difference between Karate and Kung Fu forms?

Karate form = anything you could do on a heavy bag. Also, stop and go, so it's basically useless.

Kung Fu form = contains techniques and principles, much more complex, flowing, not stop and go, develops agility and accuracy. Kung Fu forms have low stances to develop strength in the legs while doing the form, but you don't actually use the low stances in combat.

Also, formwork in internal martial arts is essential in order to have any power within your striking.

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc, if you don't read my posts, please do not reply to them, I explained in MA you can't speak of COPY

KF= Original which is fixed and therefore can't evolve or change
Karate=enhanced digital copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations
TKD=analog copy of a partial copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations

Although the original source material might have been watered down, this doesn't say anything about what is better

Oh and don't talk god to an atheist, I am no copy of a figment of the imagination

but in a legal law transactions, ORIGINAL Documents is highly recommended or honored rather than a XEROXED type of Documents

Note:
Try Xerox your Passport or VISA, then throw your original Passport or VISA and lets see if you can still travel to another foreign land with a xerox copy left.....

[sherwinc]

the Shaolin temple is now just a tourist trap by the chinese government - anybody that believes the boxing styles located in or even mainly around the temple, are delluding themselves unfortunatley. Most of the Top chinese boxers are hidden away or moved to taiwan.

Even chen family village is now a tourist trap allong with the taoist Conplex at Wu Dang mountain.

My teacher says the only way to find REAL chinese martial arts is to either go to Taiwan, or get seriously off the beaten track in mainland china. He has travelled EXTENSIVELY in china and i take his word for it.

Cheers
chris

good post!!!!!!!

i have a correction.......

not only they go to Taiwan, but.....

they go to Taiwan, Singapore and the Philippines........

[sherwinc]

1) I got mad at a 4th Dan (Shotokan instructor) for saying crap about self-defense and non traditionalists. I finally had enough and called him on the carpet for this and told him he was full of shit and told him I would show him. We sparred but I didn't use karate I didn't do what he expected instead I shot in with a double leg takedown and took him down and as I rolled him to his stomach I pulled my safety knife (he didn't know I had it) and slit his throat (not for real of course).

I had a very good friend who is an 4th dan aikido instructor who I nagged and nagged to spar. He would always decline saying he would hurt me (break my arm). Finally he got tiered of my insistence and agreed to let me punch at him and he would show me his defense. So, instead of throwing the punch like he expected, I shot in for a double leg takedown, and pummeled him into submission (just lightly though). He could not defend against what he didn’t expect.

try do that double leg takedown to a boxing, muaythai, kickboxing, sub wrestling, etc... and will will still achieve the same results......

and these karate and tae kwon do, even thou they have forearm blocking, still, they use their face and chest to block the opponents hand attacks......

and that is the reason why i quit karate and switch to kungfu......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

but in a legal law transactions, ORIGINAL Documents is highly recommended or honored rather than a XEROXED type of Documents

Note:
Try Xerox your Passport or VISA, then throw your original Passport or VISA and lets see if you can still travel to another foreign land with a xerox copy left.....

Martial Arts aren't legal transactions, already told you that, it doesn't matter if you compare it like that 100x it is still a flawed comparison.
Your line of reasoning, I can use too, every student is no more than a COPY of his teacher, no student therefore can become better than his teacher and the art they practice will inevitabely decline