karate and kung fu

[HuSanYan]

toudiyama, why are you yapping on about Karate & Karate history, who the hell is interested in a style that is on the whole, crap for real world self defense. Who cares if it came from the chimps or the Yakuza or Elvis Presley for that matter

[Tameo]

http://www.ska.org/history.shtml
Karate history can be traced back some 1400 years, to Daruma, founder of Zen Buddhism in Western India. Daruma is said to have introduced Buddhism into China, incorporating spiritual and physical teaching methods that were so demanding that many of his disciples would drop in exhaustion. In order to give them greater strength and endurance, he developed a more progressive training system, which he recorded in a book, Ekkin-Kyo, which can be considered the first book on karate of all time.

Really? I thought Bodhiharma was founder of Zen Buddhism.

[Tameo]

oh nvm its the same person

[Tameo]

oh nvm its the same person.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

toudiyama, why are you yapping on about Karate & Karate history, who the hell is interested in a style that is on the whole, crap for real world self defense. Who cares if it came from the chimps or the Yakuza or Elvis Presley for that matter

All martial arts suck at being effective selfdefence
someone that trains 2 hours a week in MT sucks just as much at selfdefence as someone with the same amount of training in TMA
anything that demand that you keep taining to be able to defend yourself is ineffective selfdefence

The history of Karate shows where it all went very wrong, but also that there might be some schools in Okinawaa that didn't lose the MA aspect

Also the thread is about the difference between Karate and Kung Fu not about effectiveness of any of them

Personally I don't give a shit what you and some others think about any art at all, I've put it so use on ocasions and never had any problems when i started doing Savate and MT on the side, so why would I care what your experience with karate or tma is?

[HuSanYan]

Toudiyama baby

you might not be a bad man after all

[Oraenor]

you might not be a bad man after all

Husanyan is in love!!!! how GAY!

[HuSanYan]

oh honestly oreanor!
i think its quite sweet really

[HtTKar]

Ht did you read the actual thread title??, you know, the thing thats underlined in the topic list

Yes.
Oreanor stated he knew the difference between Karate, and Kung Fu, but could not explain it. Instead of making up facts, and giving my sole opinion, I gave a link stating the evolutionary history of each of these two different styles.

Kung Fu does have a significant relavence to Karate, History shows that. But they are not the same, and the history shows why.
How better to explain? I haven't seen an answer posted in this whole thread.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Differences between the 2

In the question asked about the differences between the 2 arts, I think the main difference is what type of karate are you talking about? I don't mean a particular style, but the origin. Real karate is an Okinawan art, not Japanese. The okinawans we're a independent people who traded freely with China and Japan, residing in the Ryukyu islands, Okinawa being the largest. The origional okinawan karate was first refered to as Chinese boxing. What dominates the western world today, even styles called okinawan (no offense to anyone) is actually japanese karate. When the Japanese invasion finally took hold after hundreds of years of fighting, the Japanese wanted karate taught in the school system to give their people a better level of fitness. Many american masters learned this style(once again, no offense to anyone). The only traditional karate I've ever taken is Ryukyu Kempo. It teaches that there no blocks in kata. This is very different from any other karate style I've seen. If you want any more info. Please let me know. Mahalo.

[HtTKar]

The only traditional karate I've ever taken is Ryukyu Kempo. It teaches that there no blocks in kata...The only traditional karate I've ever taken is Ryukyu Kempo

GM Hanshi Capela taught to spar using nothing but blocks. Using a block as an attack. An Outside forearm block to the head is pretty effective.

Chinese boxing is chinese. There are over 400 styles of chinese boxing, Taijiquan, Praying Mantis, Yiquan, and Northern Shaolin are just some examples.

Okinawa originally had a weaponless martial art called Te (Hands). Chinese sailors and merchants, along with okinawans that travelled to china for study had an influence on this art by combining it with the teachings of What is now known as White Crane Kung Fu. They then named this New combined style To-De (Chinese Hands).

The three main villages, through isolation, further developed their own style. Naha-te, Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te. These are the traditional Okinawan styles.

Tamari-Te was assimilated later by Naha-Te
Shuri-Te founded Shotokan and later Kempo
Naha-Te founded Goju-Ryu
Naha-Te + Shuri-Te founded Shito-Ryu

Kempo..like Shotokan grew from Shuri-Te

"In 1916 a young Hawaiian named James Mitose travelled to Kyushu in Japan where he learnt Kosho Ryu Kempo. He later returned to Hawaii where he taught William Chow, who further developed the art. To differentiate his system from that of Mitose, William Chow called his school Kenpo Karate. As a visual break from the traditional Japanese and Okinawan Karate styles"

Kempo is neither Traditional Japanese nor Okinawan Karate.

[Jeremy Lobdell]

Semantics, semantics, semantics!!!

You can call a move whatever you want. If you're striking someone upside the head, it's not a block. The next thing I'll hear is somewhere on here has invented a style that utelizes exclusive blocking with your face. The problem with what most people consider to be traditional karate is that it is getting rediculus. I walked into a Issinryu school a couple of years ago just to check it out and watched a 4th degree bb break down the nahanchi kata. I literally had to run outside a few times to keep my laughter from interupting his class. You really seem to have your history down, or you're just regurgitating someone elses info. Either way it seams to me that you're part of the reason why karate practitioners are the joke of the ma community and more people used to practice karate and now do something "real" than ever before. Mahalo

[sherwinc]

Chinese boxing is chinese. There are over 400 styles of chinese boxing, Taijiquan, Praying Mantis, Yiquan, and Northern Shaolin are just some examples.

another examples are:
1. ChiDianBun KungFu
2. AngKa KungFu
3. Tan Style TaiChiChuan KungFu
4. Hik Style TaiChiChuan KungFu
5. Kiaw Style TaiChiChuan KungFu
6. Chua Style TaiChiChuan KungFu
7. SwordFinger Style KungFu

truely there are 400 styles of KungFu invented, most of them already extinct or considered as Die-Art.....

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Okinawans tend to be more muscular than the Chinese, this might have had influence too.

It was Itosu who made the alteration and introduced it to the highschools with the intention of getting it adopted by the millitary, that's where we lost Bunkai, oyo, tuite and kyusho and got sadled with walking up and down the Dojo
From there on most training was solo, no longer were the forms a way of repeating whaat you already trained with an oponent, but excercises on itself
For some even a goal on itself

[Jeremy Lobdell]

The point becomes clear!

Excellent point Toudiyama! If you've ever seem a copy of Gichin Funakoshi's first book (it's really hard to find now) unless you read japanese its not great but all the pictures show him practicing with another person what is commonly refered to as high, middle, and low block. these are actually counters to grabs. Then when the book was translated to english, he was alone in the pictures doing the move and all the kanji writing under the picture was gone.
These moves were designed for a specific enemy, the japanese samuri, under the guise that necesity is the mother of invention. In an empty hand senario the samuri were much more likely to grad you (joint lock, throw, ect.) than punch. While atemi waza is very important, it was not designed to counter an aggressive puncher. I don't know very many karate practioners who spar the same way they do kata. Somewhere along the way, the message was lost.
Also the connection with japanese schools is very prevalent in karate. Terms like sempai and kohi were strictly used in the school system and were not a part of karate until the japanese got ahold of it.