know what your getting into

[kiddbjj]

okay here's my opinion, take it or leave it.

i trained for nearly six years in kung fu and then moved on to BJJ and some Muay Thai/Shoot hybrid for stand up which i have been doing for over a year.

from this i have come to some general conclusions about the martial arts.
firstly, nowadays there are basically two categories 1... fighting/competition based styles & 2... growth/personal development styles.

now before you go nuts about sports versus street styles or internal vs external arts let me cite my reasoning for breaking things down like this.
the way i have made the separation is based on the overall goals and outcomes behind certain arts.

for example, styles such as boxing, kickboxing, bjj, sambo, judo, wrestling, are all what we now know as combat sports and even though they include or exclude certain techniques the one thing they all have in common is the overall goal and outcomes they try to achieve. Which is a competition focus versus a committed resisting opponent, in other words "fighting" against another person, albeit within the limitations of the rules.

the thing that all these styles have in common, which any one that has trained in them will agree, is that in general they are all played/learnt mostly by competative and athletically minded men (few women) and are very much trained in a way that resembles any other sport. even though there is usually a good atmosphere in the training halls everyone is doing their best to beat one another and A LARGE PORTION OF TRAINING IS SPENT SPARRING. teachers are usually more like coaches, you might call them by their first name rather than sensei etc and the overall atmosphere is completlely different to that of a traditional training hall.

the other side of the coin then is the growth/personal development styles. these include things like kung fu, some karate, aikido, hapkido, some jui jitsu, ninjutsu etc. basically the old school asian arts.
there goals/outcomes are usually more abstract and harder to judge than sports styles. you might be the biggest a**hole around but if you can fight well your basically considered a success or taleneted in a combat sport, however growth styles will generally judge you more on the intangibles rather than your fighting. we all know a high ranking guy or girl in a traditional style who might have great spirit and form but would still get trounced by a mean bastard on the street.
what i learnt from kung fu training is that a vast majority of the time is spent developing your ability to deal with yourself and your own self induced limitations via hard physical training. this may include sparring but in reality the techniques used and the way the techniques are trained is secondary to basically getting you to face your fears.

you are considered a success/good student in the traditional styles if you never give up during training, all ways show up, have good respect and discipline and most importantly i think would be a loyalty and devotion to your style.

if you look at the breakdown of a typical kung fu class i had it would be...
warm up/stretch - 15 minutes
horse stance punching- 5 min
horse stance blocks/catches- 5mins
kicking- 10 mins
then
forms and applications - about 30 mins
then
leg/arm conditioning- 5 mins
pad work (very general punching/kicking/elbows/knees) but flat strap - 5 - 10 min
footwork in isolation- 5 min
sparring- 5-10min
meditation/philosophy - 5-10 min

nearly every aspect of this breakdown is done in isolation, and i'm sure it is reasonably similar to other traditional styles.

i know my argument is a little scattered but i guess my point is know what you want to get from a style before you start. if you want a challenge and to grow as a person u can get that from combat sports but if it your priority then do a traditional style or even yoga for that matter. if you want to learn to fight and spar often then do a combat sport. sure you will spar in a growth style but not to the extent and to the depth you will get with sport styles.

thats is from me

[HtTKar]

I've never taken Kung Fu, so I cannot speak from experience here. But I can not imagine that most dojos spend so much time doing nothing. About 50 minutes of your class was being spent doing things that could have been done at home. To me, in my humble opinion, it doesnt seem like you had much chance to really learn anything.
After you know how to punch from a horse stance, or a cat stance, how many more times do you have to practice it to do it perfectly?

I could understand 10-15 minutes of stretching/pushups/sittups/ and other basic excercises to get you warmed up. But the rest of the class, I would think would be better well spent learning actual techniques, applications, and situational responses. Practicing drills while learning new things, and sparring to keep you doing punches and kicks would help much more than hitting nothing.

I agree with so much that you have to say. An like i said, I have never taken kung fu. But I find it hard to beleive that most kung fu schools could operate while spending so much time teaching nothing. I do not mean to appear insulting, I am just taken by surprise.

[sdizier]

okay here's my opinion, take it or leave it.

i trained for nearly six years in kung fu and then moved on to BJJ and some Muay Thai/Shoot hybrid for stand up which i have been doing for over a year.

from this i have come to some general conclusions about the martial arts.
firstly, nowadays there are basically two categories 1... fighting/competition based styles & 2... growth/personal development styles.

now before you go nuts about sports versus street styles or internal vs external arts let me cite my reasoning for breaking things down like this.
the way i have made the separation is based on the overall goals and outcomes behind certain arts.

for example, styles such as boxing, kickboxing, bjj, sambo, judo, wrestling, are all what we now know as combat sports and even though they include or exclude certain techniques the one thing they all have in common is the overall goal and outcomes they try to achieve. Which is a competition focus versus a committed resisting opponent, in other words "fighting" against another person, albeit within the limitations of the rules.

the thing that all these styles have in common, which any one that has trained in them will agree, is that in general they are all played/learnt mostly by competative and athletically minded men (few women) and are very much trained in a way that resembles any other sport. even though there is usually a good atmosphere in the training halls everyone is doing their best to beat one another and A LARGE PORTION OF TRAINING IS SPENT SPARRING. teachers are usually more like coaches, you might call them by their first name rather than sensei etc and the overall atmosphere is completlely different to that of a traditional training hall.

the other side of the coin then is the growth/personal development styles. these include things like kung fu, some karate, aikido, hapkido, some jui jitsu, ninjutsu etc. basically the old school asian arts.
there goals/outcomes are usually more abstract and harder to judge than sports styles. you might be the biggest a**hole around but if you can fight well your basically considered a success or taleneted in a combat sport, however growth styles will generally judge you more on the intangibles rather than your fighting. we all know a high ranking guy or girl in a traditional style who might have great spirit and form but would still get trounced by a mean bastard on the street.
what i learnt from kung fu training is that a vast majority of the time is spent developing your ability to deal with yourself and your own self induced limitations via hard physical training. this may include sparring but in reality the techniques used and the way the techniques are trained is secondary to basically getting you to face your fears.

you are considered a success/good student in the traditional styles if you never give up during training, all ways show up, have good respect and discipline and most importantly i think would be a loyalty and devotion to your style.

if you look at the breakdown of a typical kung fu class i had it would be...
warm up/stretch - 15 minutes
horse stance punching- 5 min
horse stance blocks/catches- 5mins
kicking- 10 mins
then
forms and applications - about 30 mins
then
leg/arm conditioning- 5 mins
pad work (very general punching/kicking/elbows/knees) but flat strap - 5 - 10 min
footwork in isolation- 5 min
sparring- 5-10min
meditation/philosophy - 5-10 min

nearly every aspect of this breakdown is done in isolation, and i'm sure it is reasonably similar to other traditional styles.

i know my argument is a little scattered but i guess my point is know what you want to get from a style before you start. if you want a challenge and to grow as a person u can get that from combat sports but if it your priority then do a traditional style or even yoga for that matter. if you want to learn to fight and spar often then do a combat sport. sure you will spar in a growth style but not to the extent and to the depth you will get with sport styles.

thats is from me

I agree with you that one may categorize the art into two. How you broke it down I partially disagree though. In my opinion arts can be split to sport and non-sport.

But saying that a sport style is not a growth style and visa versa I think is a little limited.

Here are my two cents.

A sport style will emphasise winning on the mat within rules. For example tae kwon do, trains lots of high kick which are great when one is bound by rules but not so great when kicking in the groin is allowed (street fights) But!!! Mastering the high kicks will give you a sense of “Growth.”

In respect to tradition, calling a person by first name is a method used by many schools, traditional or not, if in your school, you call people by last name or by sensei you are in fact showing respect more then following tradition.

You also said

you are considered a success/good student in the traditional styles if you never give up during training, all ways show up, have good respect and discipline and most importantly I think would be a loyalty and devotion to your style.

You are also considered a good student if you are good at the art.

I agree you should know what you are getting into but to say that one style is sport but not growth or growth and not combative, I feel (with all do respect) is shallow.

I feel there are better ways to categorize schools and styles.

[MrPARaNoiD]

Excellent post kiddbjj.
I couldnt have put it better myself I have done tae kwon do (2 years), boxing(bout 6 months) and I've only just started Kung Fu

P.s. Can u please post your training regeem?