chinese martial art: practical/traditional

[danfaggella]

i doubt the validity of these wierd "forms" demonstrations for the animals, there are too many drastic movements from what i see. also, do these shaolin guys (who train mind/body day in and day out for a LIFETIME) ever REALLY SPAR and roll? Getting a concept and doing a very delicate dance are one thing, but practical aplication seem to be lacking. I WOULD think that one of these guys who has trained super-hard since early childhood should be able to devistate any UFC man (in a REAL, to the death fight, not even sportive, because that is UFC guys home turf) thier own weight, but now i doubt that. These men can be so focused, and thier footwork and handwork and endurence and ability to put mind over matter and thier knowledge of 1000-year-old arts, and thier knowledge of how to breath, how to get in the warrors mindset, al of these skills are SO INCREADIBLE but it seems almost as if they go to waste on impractical tradional things.

im not being really defencive i just want to learn

[shaolin-warrior]

now i understand

[Tameo]

real kung-fu power right here http://www.mantismartialart.com/demofight-2.WMV

[danfaggella]

i like to see that kind of stuff, right in the clinch, real fast real precise, bam-bam-boom. however, are they pre-coordinated sequences?

[djcaldwell]

i doubt the validity of these wierd "forms" demonstrations for the animals, there are too many drastic movements from what i see. also, do these shaolin guys (who train mind/body day in and day out for a LIFETIME) ever REALLY SPAR and roll? Getting a concept and doing a very delicate dance are one thing, but practical aplication seem to be lacking. I WOULD think that one of these guys who has trained super-hard since early childhood should be able to devistate any UFC man (in a REAL, to the death fight, not even sportive, because that is UFC guys home turf) thier own weight, but now i doubt that. These men can be so focused, and thier footwork and handwork and endurence and ability to put mind over matter and thier knowledge of 1000-year-old arts, and thier knowledge of how to breath, how to get in the warrors mindset, al of these skills are SO INCREADIBLE but it seems almost as if they go to waste on impractical tradional things.

im not being really defencive i just want to learn

Danfaggella,

With all due respect and your desire to learn being very admirable, it is difficult for someone who has not MA experience at all to grasp many of its concepts. MA training in whatever system you train is an evolution. In the beginning a person understands the technique the particular application for that move. As you progress you understand that, hey there are more applications to this same move than I realized. To get cryptic...When you start training a punch is a punch and nothing more. As you progress you realize that a punch may be a deflection a block or only part of setting something else in motion. Then the dilema becomes cripplining your brain in looking for hidden techniques and movements until you get to that level of understanding and returning to...that punch is in this case, just a punch.

As we've discussed before, and again no disrespect intended but you are very caught up in what we'll call TV Kung Fu. You're only true exposure is to what you have read and seen and you have no actual experience basis to TRULY base your assessments on. This can be detrimental for you and prove as pointless neverending discussions as without something to base your ideas on, regardless what we inform you of to be true, you are going to hold on to the concepts you have already determined in your head to be reality.

With that said, lets touch base on your original issue. TCMA are in fact true fighting skills. As I pointed out in another thread the root of pretty much all MA come from CMA's. All TMA have some kind of forms or kata's or whatever they call them. It is as was pointed out earlier in the thread very well - a basis for the skills you are learning. They encompass many of the techinques, stances and movements of the particular system to which they belong. Often you will see different styles sharing the same forms, this is because somewhere along the line those techniques were either add to the system (with or without permission from its lineage) and have become part of the training. Choi Lay Fut and Hung Ga are very similar in this respect that some of the forms they do share.

Anyway, forms provide proper foundation for your skills, again as was pointed out by providing muscle memory retention through repetition you train your body to execute movements naturally. HOWEVER, without understanding of a forms applications then as you say it is nothing more than a dance. Every forms movements can have numerous PRACTICAL applications. If you do not understand these applications then the movements in the form are pointless. NOW to disregard entire styles because of your misconceptions about forms and their benefits would be remiss. There are many McDojo's and even more schools that claim to be TMA that are jokes and unfortunately to the untrained or unexperienced there is no way for you to really tell right away.

You say you want to see TCMA in tournaments and fighting - TCMA movements for the most part weren't designed for "brawling". Choi Lay Fut for example is a devestating MA and many of the techinques and applications you learn are not going to be acceptable in a "controlled environment". You doubt animals - but I don't think UFC rules would to fond of Tiger's ripping at flesh or grabbing and seperation of muscles. To say that TCMA are not effective or question their design to have been more of "dancing" is again with all due respect, ignorance. WUSU as it was originally called is the "war or martial art". What has become common place Wusu as done in the temple today IS just dancing but by original, true definitiion Wusu was created for the purpose of FIGHTING. Kung Fu is the mastery of "something" be it playing the piano, writting or painting you can attain Kung Fu in it. Therefore, practitioners attained Kung Fu Wusu. They were skilled at the art of war or skilled martial artists. Westerners through glamourization adopted the term Kung Fu to define the MA as we know it today. But be it KF, Karate, BJJ, Muay Thai - they were all created to FIGHT and make more efficient fighters.

Sorry for the historical rant but I hope it helps you to understand a little more. Again, until you are practicing and can see first hand of what myself and others speak it will be difficult for you to truly understand. (not that you're stupid or anything - but again it comes with experience). Let go of the TV Kung Fu, the UFC Fights and forget what you see of "Shaolin" monks today - they are not real fighters anymore. Get out there, TRY SOMETHING with an open mind and don't try to disect what YOU feel is pertient. Truly learn and you will be able to then assess what it is you like about a MA.

[gong fu]

when the practise of gong fu was outlawed in china, they promoted wushu as a alternate, wushu is not for fighting, its good for your body though, but if someone just trained in wushu, i wouldent back them to win a fight thats for sure, and shaolin gong fu students do spar each other but not on camera. im a member of a shaolin temple in london. ive seen monks spar. its something else trust me.

http://www.shaolintempleuk.org/