Forms... practical?

[danfaggella]

I wonder why forms are the way they are sometimes. Why do people stand in the hoarse stance and keep ther hands at thier hips, even when one hand is doing block/attack motons the other is glued to the hip. This all seems like it trains people incorrectly, not practically...

comments welcome

gracias

[danfaggella]

I hate to bump but I'm still pondering this question.

[payon23]

Forms are generally done a certain way for a specific reason.

Doing singular arm exercises is done to develop movements in isolation.
If you look at your form closely then you will probably see a section where the arms work together, supporting each other, and then probably a section where they work in opposite directions.

A form is generally what the word suggests. It is basically the correct form of your style, a repository of your style's techniques and guide to correct positioning etc

[Hardball]

It also depends on what level of form you are doing. Some forms have only hand techniques and blocks while others are loaded with kicks and other goodies. I think most advanced forms or Black belt forms look to develop amberdextrity.{sp} Forms are also supposed to contain secrets that only certain people in that system can interpret.

Personally, I just do them for relaxation..........I would much rather spar, hit a heavy bag or speed bag for combat training. I learned sil lim tao while cross training in wing chun, chong ji and dan gun while taking tkd, and heain 1 in shotokan. I taught myself modified versions of heain 2-5 by using the shotokan Best Karate series. I also have a custom form I created called Mil Fre. ( Short for millenium freestyle). Mil Fre always begins the same but always has a different middle and ending. It's is designed to adapt to changing combat situations of modern contemporary times.

I try to do all 9 kata every day at least once simply because they are relaxing. I do them at different speeds depending on my stress level. I like to do them with tai chi music or with nature such as the beach, mountains or forrest.

None of my forms were required for my Shodan exam since I practice JJJ.

[kiddbjj]

hey dude

i did kung fu for six years, learning from a chinese master with over thirty five years experience. he told me that forms are only for arts sake, as well as the extra benefits of fitness, flexibility and the on-going challenge of perfecting them. he stated categorically that they are not going to teach you how to fight.

its hard to argue with that many years of experience.

hope that helps

[danfaggella]

It does. Who was this fella and what did he teach? I might know of him I read about martial arts whenever I can.

I know forms alone don't teach you to fight. I think someone who has been doing only forms for 40 years would get this ass kicked by a guy who has done judo or kickboxing for a few months, forms alone don't let you feel what a real fight is and actually aply technique, nevermind on a resisting opponent. Randori and sparring are the basis of real practical knowledge IMO, in addition to listening to an instructor and watching techniques. Letting a partner do a move or doing one on a compliant partner can also teach you how a move works and then you can pull it off in randori, then in the street. Even if you know what a form would translate to (IE: a specific punch, block, gouge, kick, parry, ect...) without actually ever doing the techniques nothing can REALLY be learned.

I like modern/sprotive martial arts most due to thier training method, I feel strongly about the value of randori/sparring. Though I also do TMA, so I'm not knocking anyone, except for flower fists.

[bbbb]

great idea..letting your mind work like that

It also depends on what level of form you are doing. Some forms have only hand techniques and blocks while others are loaded with kicks and other goodies. I think most advanced forms or Black belt forms look to develop amberdextrity.{sp} Forms are also supposed to contain secrets that only certain people in that system can interpret.

Personally, I just do them for relaxation..........I would much rather spar, hit a heavy bag or speed bag for combat training. I learned sil lim tao while cross training in wing chun, chong ji and dan gun while taking tkd, and heain 1 in shotokan. I taught myself modified versions of heain 2-5 by using the shotokan Best Karate series. I also have a custom form I created called Mil Fre. ( Short for millenium freestyle). Mil Fre always begins the same but always has a different middle and ending. It's is designed to adapt to changing combat situations of modern contemporary times.

I try to do all 9 kata every day at least once simply because they are relaxing. I do them at different speeds depending on my stress level. I like to do them with tai chi music or with nature such as the beach, mountains or forrest.

None of my forms were required for my Shodan exam since I practice JJJ.

We were told one useful way to use form's is to focus on different part's of the five elment's of fighting whilst practising them.

They are 1) Kill (contact/sensitivity)
2) Maher (stance)
3) Geng (forward driving power)
4) Sun (correct attitude)
5) Hay (breathing).
Try that.. a different focus when doing them...and hopefully gaining more out of your practise as a result. Good Stuff.

[Tant01]

Observation...

I wonder why forms are the way they are sometimes. Why do people stand in the hoarse stance and keep ther hands at thier hips, even when one hand is doing block/attack motons the other is glued to the hip. This all seems like it trains people incorrectly, not practically...

comments welcome

gracias

Just about every style I have been exposed to has had "forms" or kata of one kind or another.

Judo has Kata to preserve a number of techniques from old Jujutsu ryuha as well as modern self defense forms (Goshinjutsu)

I have been told that kata is like fighting invisible enemies. That it is only to demonstrate dexterity and agility. That it has all the secrets of a particular style hidden in it. But much of the modern forms are for breathing, EXERCISE and stamina. (and learning techniques, applications and proper body mechanics)
Pentjak styles have Jurus and Lankas that resemble dance to some observers. Usually practiced with drums to set a cadence or rhythm to the movements.
Tai chi comes to mind, Sambo has pre arranged sequences of techniques to practice solo and with a partner. The list goes on.

What they all share is a catalogue of the techniques rehearsed to an art form.

"form" of art, yes? Is it "martial"? I don't know...

[danfaggella]

Thats my issue, I am doing TMA but I don't think I need all these forms, I wish TMA was taught differently.

By the way do those five elements include grappling and takedowns at all, BBBB?

[gabbah]

Thats my issue, I am doing TMA but I don't think I need all these forms, I wish TMA was taught differently.

By the way do those five elements include grappling and takedowns at all, BBBB?

I think you're right, you don't need them. That time could be spent on much better things, like practise actually performing the techniques live.

[danfaggella]

I think I can still pull stuff from TMA, but I don't plan to practice these forms until I'm an old man.

Its quite a problem for me, I want to learn from TMA but I don't want to do all this form stuff so much. I would find a place to train White Crane or something, but its proabably all form form form.

Are there any places that teach Chin Na, I know chin na is in a lot of CMA styles but I don't know if it can also be learned on its own.

[gabbah]

i'm curious, what is it that attracts you to TMA. What specific things do you want to learn?
I haven't done any TMA that's why I'm curious.

[danfaggella]

Well bro, I am a modernist when it comes to MA, just in general I think dealing with the "problem of martial arts" (moves that cant be demonstrated or trained with in full because they are too dangerous) is most logically done by creating a sportive way to "fight" an opponent, with certain rules so that niether of you will end up dead. Randori-type training gives one the feel of real fighting, it shows someone how to controll an opponent on the ground, how to hit, how to feint, ect... Only experience can really teach such things, and real fights are far too dangerous, they will do too much harm to be a valid learning experince, so eliminating some real dangers but creating a base that can be worked with, that can be tested in the rin gand on the mat, nothing hypothetical, this is a beautiful thing and I think all martial artists should be able to have a REAL base, not be able to say "well if someone did this I could do this, but i cant really do it and ive never seen it done, its dangerous."

However, I'm not going to pretend that martial arts is limited to ring-friendly techniques and scinarios, or that modern martial arts are the only ones in existence. There is a lot out there, and though I am a modernist, I want to be a martial artist and expereince the rest of the spectrum, despite the fact that some of what I get may be only tradition not practicality, but I think TMA offers things Modern MA doesn't. I will learn about some hand forms you'll never see in the ring, maybe even some knife defence, some groin attacks, propper ways to gouge, to breathe properly. I also think that many Modern MA places just teach tough guys how to "kick ass", while TMA actually places value on developing as a person. I want to dabble in this aspect of martial arts, I'm sure I will pull some things from it.

Keep in mind I am still very much a modern guy, I only do this TMA thing once a week and sometimes I practice some of it with a friend of mine who goes tothe same place. All the other days I al living modern MA, especially submission grappling, which I plan to do for a long time and hopefully even compete in Abu Dhabi.

I just want to think to MMA as MIXED MARTIAL ARTS, meaning ANY kind of martial arts, not just MT/BJJ, that is far too generic and closed minded IMO, though there is certainly a lifetime of study that can be done to each of those in themselves.

Grapgrapgrap!

[gabbah]

Well I couldn't agree more.
I see the same problem with dangerous techniques; they are hard to train live.

So you want to learn groin strikes, eye gouge and such, but train in a "good" way? Well, from what I have seen the krav maga guys do just that.
It's not TMA I guess, but they train as realistic as possible (the use light biting and ege gouge in sparring for instance).
So maybe that's what you're looking for?

[shaolin-warrior]

I think I can still pull stuff from TMA, but I don't plan to practice these forms until I'm an old man.

Its quite a problem for me, I want to learn from TMA but I don't want to do all this form stuff so much. I would find a place to train White Crane or something, but its proabably all form form form.

Are there any places that teach Chin Na, I know chin na is in a lot of CMA styles but I don't know if it can also be learned on its own.

Dan,
The shaolin white crane form is very soft and fluid to look at but can be broke down into 17 very strong and effective self defense moves. If your learning forms and your instructor doesn't take the time to or have the knowledge to explain the movements in part instead of as a whole, your missing out. When I first started out, I was fortunate enough to be part of one of the original united studios before they became a mc dojo. I learned the white crane form from Steve Damascos system and it was taught in parts as self defense kempos than put to gether as a whole in complete form. Although I am no longer affiliated with United Studios and would steer friends away from that organization due to much internal struggle and lack of consistencey and competance, His White Crane Video is a good buy and very informative. AdmittedlyI would not break into a crane stance like Danielsan in Karate Kid to fend off an attacker, there are a few kempos in this form that I would use in a heartbeat in the ring and on the street. It's nice to know the whole form, but then take from it what is useful like Bruce said.