Chinese Kung Fu: Which style is worth it?

[Thai Bri]

That's a push.

Try it yourself. Stand your assistant square on with his legs next to each other, and put something like a chair behind them for them to trip over.

Don't ring for any ambulances though! That one inch punch doesn't hurt a bit.

[Tom Yum]

LOL! wing chunners are funny!

If you consider the McDojo aspects of wingchun, I agree.

I still believe its the artist and the art, rather than the art alone that makes a good fighter. Here's some old footage of Bruce Lee demonstrating the 1" punch against Hayward Nishioka, whom was a judo black belt and highly ranked competitor in Japan and in the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keS3OTNger8

In slow-mo and color

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS6aMdskKSo

[jubaji]

First off, is San shou recognised as a form of kung fu? Most people I know who have trained a lot in it claim that it is just a derivative of wushu

Secondly I play around with a lot of san shou guys and I have no trouble taking them down. Admittedly, their strikes are hard but I can out-box them if it is a friendly play around, or if they are really going for it, I just destroy them using close quarter Kamon wing chun.

I'm not saying san shou is crap - I am sure it is good if trained properly, but one of my training partners has trained wushu, san shou, preying mantis for over twenty years and he still gets caught out in smaller environments (my garage, small training halls etc)

.

LOL! wing chunners are funny!

[Red Rum]

Woah woah... I never said that a hook punch wouldn't knock someone out. I have been knocked out from a hook previously so I know how hard they can be.

The point I am trying to make is that when you throw a hook you are expending a huge amount of energy to do this.
A good 'scientific' way to show this is simple. Get a training partner to hold up some pads, then do as many hooks you can in a couple of minutes. The average fighter will get pretty tired afterwards
If you do the same thing using wing chun punches you won't be that tired.

Next, if you measure the accuracy factor, it is easier to hit a target using wing chun punching. A good boxer will be very accurate, but a person who does boxing 'now and again' will not be overly accurate
Wing chun guys should be hitting the same spot every time (because we train to attack the centre line)

Next, if you compare speeds - what is faster? A hook (circular motion)? Or a straight punch (straight line)?

Next if someone grabs my arms, I am unable to throw a hook punch
In wing chun, using good chi sao, you can still hit them

I don't want to get into a massive debate about this. I box regularly and the fighters I train with are among the fittest, hardest and most dedicated athletes I know. If I was fighting a smaller opponent I would probably fall back on my boxing rather than wing chun, especially if I have room

But if the guy is as big as me or looks like he knows martial arts, I will rely more on wing chun. Especially if I don't have room!

A lot of people on this forum have never gone to a wing chun class (that's their choice) which is making this whole thing pointless. I have never done fencing, so I wouldn't presume to say that an art I know is better than fencing.

I know Youtube and myspace has all different kinds of wing chun videos, but you can't really see how hard the punches are - just like when you watch a boxing match and people get knocked out by a little clip on the nose.

My suggestion to people who read this and have doubts, go to wing chun schools (good ones) - Kamon, Alan Orr's, James Sinclair's etc

Most do boxing as an add on to the art, but will still tell you that in a streetfight, wing chun is more advisable

[medic06]

Where is your scientific evidence that a WC punch is harder than any other punch? Being immovable isn't enough, I've met many different martial artist including wrestlers who are capable of making themselves virtually immovable through the use of structure and leaverage.

[medic06]

As I have stated before - I have trained in boxing, MT, karate, Judo, BJJ, TKD, CKD and various other arts.

Sadly I am a much better boxer than I am at wing chun, but when I try to box people like Sifu Kevin Chan, they shut me down using wing chun.

Admittedly there are not many good schools of wing chun, especially in the UK. Schools such as WT produce people who think they can one inch punch a person in a fight and that would be it. This is what gives WC a bad rep.

I have attended several TKD schools and each have been pretty poor in standard. Yet I would never say that TKD in general is rubbish - there are probably some great schools out there.

It's the same with boxing gyms. Some try to push you into becoming professional boxers and if you don't want to do it then they won't let you train there.

But Medic06 you are right. I have no real scientific evidence to say that boxers are the best upper body fighters in the world and I will retract that statement...

There is plenty of footage of knockouts from a boxing hook. A good punch involves the whole body regardless of style.

[jonbey]

I agree with that entirely. A good instructor is the key really. I have also found the best instructors to be those that have studied various different styles over the years as they tend to have a better appreciation of what actually works in a real situation, against an unpredictable opponent.

[jeff5]

I'd say go with the instructor that you think is the best. A good instructor can make any style worth your time.

[jonbey]

Red Rum, where are you based? I think there will be a chow gar seminar in August, at the Basildon club, and run by Master Paul. If interested I'll find out the date. Could be a good intro to the style.

[jonbey]

Mantis is very suitable for a big guy. Dim mak is overrated, but a good instructor will know what works and what does not. Dim mak goes out the window as soon as you meet someone with a thick jacket on a winters night. The key really is developing the powerful strikes (like any other art really), conditioning the body, and the training methods. Most of what is done in a mantis class (chow gar at least) is done in pairs, training "chongs". We do not stand about in stance a massive amount.

Some chow gar clubs in Essex / London:

Master Paul Whitrods school:
http://directory.tranquillizer.co.uk/Paul_Whitrod's_Traditional_Martial_Arts_Association-25.html

Sifu Tony Willis' school:

http://directory.tranquillizer.co.uk/5_Elements_Martial_Arts-1.html

Cheers,

Jon,.

[Red Rum]

I am not keen on Dim Mak. The schools/instructors in the UK talk out of their ass. One instructor spent about 5 minutes trying to find a pressure poiunt on my body. What is the use of that!!?

I would be interested to see Chow Gar in action though and if you know of any UK classes please let me know.

Preying mantis tends to be explosive and powerful and I have always had a degree of respect for practitioners. The only reason I din't do it was that some of the moves require a lot of energy and stancework that is hard for a big guy to pull off

[jonbey]

Hello all,

The best traditional kung-fu style I have found is Chow Gar, a form of Southern Praying Mantis. Lots of power, short range, utilising dim mak strikes, joint breakages and good old traditional thumping. Worth a look if there is a school within reach of you.

Cheers,

Jon.

[Red Rum]

As I have stated before - I have trained in boxing, MT, karate, Judo, BJJ, TKD, CKD and various other arts.

Sadly I am a much better boxer than I am at wing chun, but when I try to box people like Sifu Kevin Chan, they shut me down using wing chun.

Admittedly there are not many good schools of wing chun, especially in the UK. Schools such as WT produce people who think they can one inch punch a person in a fight and that would be it. This is what gives WC a bad rep.

I have attended several TKD schools and each have been pretty poor in standard. Yet I would never say that TKD in general is rubbish - there are probably some great schools out there.

It's the same with boxing gyms. Some try to push you into becoming professional boxers and if you don't want to do it then they won't let you train there.

But Medic06 you are right. I have no real scientific evidence to say that boxers are the best upper body fighters in the world and I will retract that statement...

[medic06]

You guys know of a better kung fu style for combat? I have been doing martial arts for over twenty years and I haven't seen one.

As for aku aku - what I am saying is that the boxers punch is relying on momentum. It is like playing golf - you swing your body through the golf club, through the ball in one motion. It creates a lot of power, but there is no structure behind it and it uses a lot of energy.

With the wing chun punch, you are driving with the whole of your body behind the punch. The best way of thinking about it is to try pushing a wing chun practitioner backwards. They will show you how much force can be generated through stance. When I do it to my Sifu, I can't push him back, and I weigh three times his body weight.

At the end of the day, I am not saying that a boxers punch is rubbish - they are the best upper body fighters in the world. What I am saying is that in the realistic environment (no gloves, no rules, etc), a wing chun punch is sometimes better. It is more efficient (you can do a lot of them without getting tired), it is powerful, it is fast and can be done at extremely close range.

Is this based on any real scientific study or is this more WC rubbish spewed by another drone?

[medic06]

Why? Don't you know how to write posts all by yourself? Or do you just need someone to hold your hand?

Nah, he just enjoys embarrassing Win Chun drones much more than I do