Chinese Kung Fu: Which style is worth it?

[kngfu]

re

Thanks for the clarification, TTE.

On another note, I'd imagine that the Taiwanese police force has had good results from using qin-na to subdue thugs.

Sifu Man Kam Lo (?) wrote a book called POLICE KUNG FU where he shows how he teaches Wing Chun techniques to the Taiwanese police force to use in their everyday work. Pretty cool book. If you are a WC guy (like I was) it was a real boost to see someone not bashing the system but showcasing it in a real world scenario.

[TTEscrima]

Thanks for the clarification, TTE.

On another note, I'd imagine that the Taiwanese police force has had good results from using qin-na to subdue thugs.

Qin-na is a subset of techniques contained in many of the Chinese arts, but it isn't a style itself. I'm unsure how much Qin-na is used by the Taiwanese police but the Chinese special police forces are limited to the closed fist because of the abundance of Qin-na knowledge in the general population.

[Tom Yum]

Thanks for the clarification, TTE.

On another note, I'd imagine that the Taiwanese police force has had good results from using qin-na to subdue thugs.

[TTEscrima]

Closest you can get to wrestling is Shuai Jiao - but I'd wager that shuaijiao was influenced by the Mongolians.

Shuaijiao is founded upon the principle of striking first to off balance the opponent, the Mongolian styles don't make that distinction.

[Tom Yum]

Closest you can get to wrestling is Shuai Jiao - but I'd wager that shuaijiao was influenced by the Mongolians.

http://www.youtube.com/v/0wB6WISba5M&hl=en

Submissions? Qin-na.

http://www.youtube.com/v/CWG6eglkLa8&hl=en

[FoolsTP]

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nm i guess you're right. i guess catch wrestling isn't chinese after all

[TTEscrima]

still dunno if i'm making any sense at all but i think if you like chinese stay with chinese all the way for grappling, throwing, joint manipulation, striking and all that.

I believe you are confused, I've been friends and crosstrained with a family who specializes in Chinese Kung Fu for most of my adult life. I recently retired from the Navy and chose to move into their facility to further my training. From my studies there are no recognized Chinese systems that specialize in groundfighting. This family also goes out of their way to supplement their skills with as much usable info as possible, their first condition for allowing me to move in was that I share my training in Escrima with the group.

[jonbey]

I have to disagree with that. I supplement my kung-fu with some kick-boxing, and have been know to wave an escrima stick about a few times too. Neither of them Chinese, but I still gain from doing them.

[FoolsTP]

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i didn't mean you had to become a black belt or sashe in all of them i just think if you are taking a chinese martial art and you want some technique from something more concentrated on a different aspect like grappling instead of striking or something you should pull from other chinese arts and not from non chinese arts.

[jonbey]

It is true that many Chinese systems are "complete systems", but it is not really possible for the average person to train in all areas in these complete systems. I have come across styles in the Uk that take at least 10 years to get to black belt level, and this still is not the whole picture.

Some styles are seen as incomplete for a variety of reasons, such as the style is simplified to all people to learn in a reasonable time, or the masters do not pass on all the knowledge to all the students. In fact, one of the Hung Gar schools that I came across in the 90's was run by a chap, who learnt from the grand masters student. The grandmaster had 2 students, a Chinese one and an American. He did not really like either enough to pass on the entire system, so taught each about half - I guess he was hoping to find a better student one day. Anyway, now the style is divided. But there is still a lot more to learn to get to instructor level than with many other styles.

The thing is, if you want to learn a bit of boxing, some grappling and locks, groundwork and kicking, and various weapons etc. then you could try to find a complete system, dedicate years to learning it, and hope that a) the instructor is well trained in the parts that you want to learn and b) the instructor is willing to teach those parts (private lessons may be required if the rest of the class are uninterested / it is off syllabus). So, really, it is probably easier for a student to dip into different styles as and when it suits them. So find a good boxing style, then a grappling school, then a weapons school.

We are no longer full time soldiers / rebel fighters / monks etc. so it is really not possible to find a complete system and learn it, all from one instructor.

[FoolsTP]

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didn't the chinese develop arts for everything... ground, striking, joint manipulation, throwing, weapons and all that stuff. i'm sure they all have the basic premises and concepts that the chinese decided to focus on (try not to missunderstand this as focus being on striking, joint, ground etc) even though i'm pretty vague and unclear here.

the only thing that confuses me is i thought the chinese were all about getting rid of the first guy as fast as possible and as you are passing him then moving right to the next guy behind him (in war or on a battlefield with weapons or none), although i'm seeing a lot of arts like wing chun and stuff that are supposedly 1 vs 1 fighting and maybe multiple man but different than what i imagined the chinese used stuff for. it's the same as with knifing i think the chinese believed in the cut, stab, slash or whatever and then right onto the next guy and not like fma where it's a lot of cuts and stuff like that.

i may be extremely confused and confusing but this is what has been bothering me.

but on the original point, it does make sense that need more than one art so you can have a ground game and a striking game and stuff, if you like chinese arts you don't need to take bjj if you want to get some ground technique because the chinese have you covered (i think there is catch wrestling or something). same with judo or aikido and the chinese shuai jiao and pi qua or whatever else there is. just seems like there's more synergy with keeping it chinese if you like it. and keeping to whatever the brazilians have for throwing and stuff or something from another system or art that you think works well with bjj for striking if you like bjj.

still dunno if i'm making any sense at all but i think if you like chinese stay with chinese all the way for grappling, throwing, joint manipulation, striking and all that.

[SmallThought]

Sorry, one more thing!

To address the "A deficient system applied well will beat a superior system applied poorly" thing: i was only refering to times as a youngster when i used the "Aussy boy from the country" fighting techniques i learned growing up against people who thought they were applying effective martial arts.

And yes, "A bad instructor of a good system is a bad instructor" is obvious to someone who is well trained. However to the uninitiated, any instruction may seem good; i was merely trying to offer some explanation to the original postor who had asked for advice as to where/how to find relevant training in Chinese Martial Arts. Also, it unfortunately seemed appropriate to make some bleedingly obvious statements based on reading previous posts.

Cheers.

[SmallThought]

No no no... pub fighting is a BAD idea!!!

Red Rum, sorry if you misunderstood my joke about learning to fight in a pub. It was actually a jibe directed at those who only practice martial arts in an effort to become the toughest bloke around. My insinuation was that the toughest guys around usually never see the inside of a training hall; the are usually too busy beating the crap outta someone or practicing their head butt on a corrogated iron fence. To me, martial arts is about discipline and a true martial artist realises that the best self defence is to not be in the situation to begin with.

As for your severe disbelief of the bruised back story; well, my Sifu had no reason to lie about it. At the time he was actually telling me how he never never lets Sigung demonstrate it on him anymore. In fact, he rarely trains the inch punch because he thinks it's not a practical fighting technique in and of itself, "inch power" however, does have merits and is fundamental to any strike from Wing Chun being effective. The "inch punch" has definite penetrating power, no matter how difficult it may be to apply in a real fight. (The exact distancing, timing and foot work are just too intricate in a pressure situation unless you are very talented and train perfectly all the time. Possible, just not probable.) He used the bruised back story to drive home the point. Just because you've never heard of something happening, does not mean it's not possible.

Telephone books are used to demonstrate the inch punch so as to dissipate the force of the blow. You get to see the impact power of the punch with out the poor idiot playing the punching bag cracking ribs or separating his sternum from his rib cage. If a practioner's inch punch is not capable of these things then it probably is a push and not a punch.

Anyhoo, i hope that cleared up any misunderstanding. Good luck with your training.
Have fun, take it easy and peace out!

[Red Rum]

Hey all

I'm glad to see that this thread has moved away from the typical Wing Chun bashing so rampant these days. I like the term McDojo, and agree that it does apply to many Wing Chun schools.

As for the inch punch being a push..... well, if you can't actually do it, then you do end up pushing. My sifu told me of an instance when his sifu demonstrated an inch punch through a telephone book and left a bruise on his back; now that is penetrating power. I have, myself, demonstrated an inch punch on a student through a telephone book and perferated his lung. Needless to say i will never demonstrate the inch punch again as i don't want a law suit.

Anyhoo... i agree with all you who say that it is the teacher, the student and the attitude that make a good fighter. I have seen poor practioners fight well and those with great technique fight poorly. Fighting is about attitude and aplication in a PRESSURED situation. No one system can teach all of those things to some one with out determination. A bad instructor of a good system is a bad instructor. A good instructor of a bad system in a good instructor. A deficient system applied well will beat a superior system applied poorly.

So, for the original poster: what do you want from your training? If you want to learn to fight, go down to your local pub look for the guy who's keeping quiet and taking in his surroundings and spit in his drink. Do that as often as possible and you'll learn to fight. Occassionally mix it up by throwing your beer over the biggest, loudest guy in the pub..... but make sure your health insurance is paid up, because it's a pretty tough school!!!

If you want to learn a system of martial arts, find a good school of a practical system with a good teacher, train hard and you'll be right mate.

One question. Why on earth do people use telephone books for demos?
I am afraid that I severly doubt the bruise on the back story. I have never heard of that happening anywhere, even in Dim Mak circles

As for starting a fight with a random person in a pub - are you an idiot?
If a person is being a yob or is committing a criminal act etc then fine, but are you actually encouraging people to go out and attack strangers for no reason other than to improve their fighting skills?
Anyone who does this will hopefully end up dead.

I love the quote -
A bad instructor of a good martial art is a bad instructor.
Thats a bit obvious isn't it?

There is no way of telling if a deficient system applied well will beat a good system applied poorly
There are a lot of streetfighters who have deficient systems who fight well. But there are poor practitioners in some arts who might have trained for only two years who can still fight better.

It is to do with character, luck, styles and environment.

Nothing more, nothing less

[SmallThought]

Best Kung Fu For What?

Hey all

I'm glad to see that this thread has moved away from the typical Wing Chun bashing so rampant these days. I like the term McDojo, and agree that it does apply to many Wing Chun schools.

As for the inch punch being a push..... well, if you can't actually do it, then you do end up pushing. My sifu told me of an instance when his sifu demonstrated an inch punch through a telephone book and left a bruise on his back; now that is penetrating power. I have, myself, demonstrated an inch punch on a student through a telephone book and perferated his lung. Needless to say i will never demonstrate the inch punch again as i don't want a law suit.

Anyhoo... i agree with all you who say that it is the teacher, the student and the attitude that make a good fighter. I have seen poor practioners fight well and those with great technique fight poorly. Fighting is about attitude and aplication in a PRESSURED situation. No one system can teach all of those things to some one with out determination. A bad instructor of a good system is a bad instructor. A good instructor of a bad system in a good instructor. A deficient system applied well will beat a superior system applied poorly.

So, for the original poster: what do you want from your training? If you want to learn to fight, go down to your local pub look for the guy who's keeping quiet and taking in his surroundings and spit in his drink. Do that as often as possible and you'll learn to fight. Occassionally mix it up by throwing your beer over the biggest, loudest guy in the pub..... but make sure your health insurance is paid up, because it's a pretty tough school!!!

If you want to learn a system of martial arts, find a good school of a practical system with a good teacher, train hard and you'll be right mate.