Chinese Kung Fu: Which style is worth it?

[Pork Chop]

maybe you guys in the UK do boxing hooks differently, but i promise my boxing hook definitely comes from my base- and the weight transition from front foot to back foot.
I can average 40 hooks (total punches over 100) a round on a heavybag without breathing too hard, so i don't see what you mean there either.

as far as which kung fu style have i seen that fights the best?
probably buk sing choy lay fut, lama, or shuai jiao.
buk sing doesn't rely too heavy on forms, not so many techniques, tons of pad work drills, and lots of fighting.
the lama guys i know all do san shou.
best shuai jiao folks i know can hang with the best judo folks i know.

honorable mentions have to go to: lung ying, southern praying mantis, bak mei, jow gar (hung tao choy mei), hung gar, hsing yi, taiji, tien shan pai, 7* mantis, taishing pek kwar, and fukien white crane (in that order probably); as I've met guys (and gals) from each that could really throw down. It's really REALLY important to find a teacher who's going to show you how to use your stuff though, complete with pad work drills. Be wary of schools that are 100% forms practice, overly concerned with tournaments, or anybody who tells you that it's impossible to fight with the techniques from the form.

currently in the process of getting back into TCMA after a long time in boxing & muay thai. my passion for jumping the in the ring has cooled off so I kinda want to do something different - sport arts can get a little dull if you're not planning on fighting.

[Red Rum]

Your monthly dues are reasonable and your annual memeber ships fee is not that high even though I don't like the idea of paying an annual membership fee it should be a one time thing if at all. Are there fees for testing in your school and how much? Also you have to pay for a uniform but the uniform just looks like a t-shirt and kung fu pants if so why so much for the kung fu pants and t-shirt? Your classes look interasting.

Thanks Blue Wave. The annual membership fee is basically insurnace. It means that once you pay it, you can train with students outside of class, perform demos, etc and be covered by the insurance. It will also allow you access to the members area of the website which has a load of interesting stuff on there. It will also allow cheaper prices for seminars etc taken by Master Kevin Chan.

Unfortunately there are fees for gradings. Gradings do not happen that often.
Once you get past beginner stages (Yellow 1, Yellow 2) students attend gradings once per year if that. At higher/senior levels, only Master Chan can enter you into the gradings if he thinks you are ready.

To be honest, the grading prices are a bit bad (start off at £28 and then increase each time you grade, ending up to about £80)
I suppose when you consider that you are taking instructors precious time to grade you, it might be okay.

Uniform is cheap. It's £11 for the kamon t-shirt and the bottoms you can get yourself (just black training/tracksuit bottoms). You can buy them through Kamon for £21, but it is up to you. They are expensive because they are quite nice quality and I am sure that Master Chan wants to make a slight profit on them.

Sashes are £5, but that is the price set by 'Blitz' (company that sells them).
Footwear is just black trainers and most people have them or can get a pair pretty cheaply
When you consider that some Gi's are around £90 to buy, it isn't bad at all.

Classes are good and there are a lot more experienced instructors than myself in the federation. As you can see from the videos on the site, Kevin Chan himself trains at high level in BJJ, wing chun, boxing and MT

One of the guys he was seen doing pad work with is Dino Meringo who was to be entered into UFC last year but had an injury

The beauty of Kamon is that you can go to three different classes and be trained three different ways. Some classes concentrate on skill, some concentrate on forms, some concentrate on fitness and hard drills, some concentrate purely on fighting.

All of the instructors have been through a pressure test which is 3 hours of constant exercise (non stop and no water breaks) plus a minute of milling.

It might be worth coming down and having a look sometime

[Red Rum]

Woah woah woah.....

Hold the phone guys. What I meant was that in that show, they were looking for the super punch (ie the one that hit the hardest in one go).
As I mentioned, I prefer a wing chun punch, not for power but the reasons I stated. Firstly, it attacks the centre line so the damage area will be more confined. Secondly, it is very easy to launch a wing chun punch (ie you could do 40 punches and not feel very tired) - a hook involves a lot more effort. Thirdly, you can perform the wing chun punch from a very short range (from a clinch), whereas it is difficult with a hook (especially if you're in a good clinch). Lastly, you are driving your body through a straight line. Whilst it won't give you the blunt force trauma that a boxers punch would, it goes deep into the body and the organs (imagine a spear that you can't stop digging into you)

A big flaw in wing chun is the footwork. A lot of chunners are too rigid and it can be too slow, especially if you are trying to keep up with a boxer, MT guy, capoira guy, etc

In Kamon, we attempt to move with flexibility, waiting for the time to hit before we use arrow walk, huen bo footwork etc.

A hook is a good punch and there is no disputing that. I have been knocked out/caught out many times with tight hooks. But I have been caught out a lot more from a wing chun punch.

Medic06 - thanks for the compliment, but it is not that much of an impressive resume compared to a lot of people. I am always willing to listen to counter arguments against any of my posts, but I tend to get one liners from ThaiBri, yourself and several others, which doesn't really progress the discussion
If you guys have a point (that isn't just designed to bash wing chun!) then share it because discussion is good.

[Red Rum]

Because it is not. How can you say a Wing Chun punch is more powerful? What punch? Who is throwing the punch? Statements like that makes no sense.

Woah woah woah.....

Hold the phone guys. What I meant was that in that show, they were looking for the super punch (ie the one that hit the hardest in one go).
As I mentioned, the wing chun punch would be a better hit, not for power but the reasons I stated. Firstly, it attacks the centre line so the damage area will be more confined. Secondly, it is very easy to launch a wing chun punch (ie you could do 40 punches and not feel very tired) - a hook involves a lot more effort. Thirdly, you can perform the wing chun punch from a very short range (from a clinch), whereas it is difficult with a hook (especially if you're in a good clinch). Lastly, you are driving your body through a straight line. Whilst it won't give you the blunt force trauma that a boxers punch would, it goes deep into the body and the organs (imagine a spear that you can't stop digging into you)

A big flaw in wing chun is the footwork. A lot of chunners are too rigid and it can be too slow, especially if you are trying to keep up with a boxer, MT guy, capoira guy, etc

In Kamon, we attempt to move with flexibility, waiting for the time to hit before we use arrow walk, huen bo footwork etc.

A hook is a good punch and there is no disputing that. I have been knocked out/caught out many times with tight hooks. But I have been caught out a lot more from a wing chun punch.

Medic06 - thanks for the compliment, but it is not that much of an impressive resume compared to a lot of people. I am always willing to listen to counter arguments against any of my posts, but I tend to get one liners from ThaiBri, yourself and several others, which doesn't really progress the discussion
If you guys have a point (that isn't just designed to bash wing chun!) then share it because discussion is good.

[Mephariel]

Impressive resume', but you still haven't explained why a WC punch is more powerful then a boxing hook.

Because it is not. How can you say a Wing Chun punch is more powerful? What punch? Who is throwing the punch? Statements like that makes no sense.

[medic06]

medic06... what clarification would you like?

If you want my website it can be found at www.kamonwingchun.com

Just have a look around at it and make your own judgement about our style. You may even pop down and watch one of our classes if you want.
It is not for me to say that Kamon is the best WC school in the country, but I have certainly found their way of training at an excellent standard compared to most other WC schools I have attended

I have done several (not entirely legitimate) tournaments. Won some, lost some.
I won (attained Gold) the self defence competition at the Reigate Martial Arts Festival in 2004.

I currently train in CKD in Surrey, I box/train under an ex pro boxer (email me privately for his name etc), and train privately with a couple of good boxers
I do intense MT with a student of mine who was once UK champion and train at a MT class on Mondays
I train BJJ at Roger Gracie Academy (on and off)
I train on and off with escrima
I used to do Kyokushinkai Karate when I was younger and trained for seven years
I have also dabbled in Ninjitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Capoira, and various kung fu styles
As for wing chun, I have trained for around 15 years at it. I joined Kamon 7 years ago, trained 5 times a week non stop and became instructor around 2/3 years ago

There are better martial artists out there for sure, but there are also a lot worse (especially some who are on this forum)
At least I don't have any qualms about posting who I am and what I do.

Impressive resume', but you still haven't explained why a WC punch is more powerful then a boxing hook.

[Blue Wave Gym]

Nice web site

Your monthly dues are reasonable and your annual memeber ships fee is not that high even though I don't like the idea of paying an annual membership fee it should be a one time thing if at all. Are there fees for testing in your school and how much? Also you have to pay for a uniform but the uniform just looks like a t-shirt and kung fu pants if so why so much for the kung fu pants and t-shirt? Your classes look interasting.

[Red Rum]

medic06... what clarification would you like?

If you want my website it can be found at www.kamonwingchun.com

Just have a look around at it and make your own judgement about our style. You may even pop down and watch one of our classes if you want.
It is not for me to say that Kamon is the best WC school in the country, but I have certainly found their way of training at an excellent standard compared to most other WC schools I have attended

I have done several (not entirely legitimate) tournaments. Won some, lost some.
I won (attained Gold) the self defence competition at the Reigate Martial Arts Festival in 2004.

I currently train in CKD in Surrey, I box/train under an ex pro boxer (email me privately for his name etc), and train privately with a couple of good boxers
I do intense MT with a student of mine who was once UK champion and train at a MT class on Mondays
I train BJJ at Roger Gracie Academy (on and off)
I train on and off with escrima
I used to do Kyokushinkai Karate when I was younger and trained for seven years
I have also dabbled in Ninjitsu, Judo, Wrestling, Capoira, and various kung fu styles
As for wing chun, I have trained for around 15 years at it. I joined Kamon 7 years ago, trained 5 times a week non stop and became instructor around 2/3 years ago

There are better martial artists out there for sure, but there are also a lot worse (especially some who are on this forum)
At least I don't have any qualms about posting who I am and what I do.

[medic06]

Hmmmm

Well I've dabbled in escrima on and off for the past few years but I wouldn't criticize a person posting comments about escrima on here....

I'm not criticizing I'm asking for clarification.

[jonbey]

The thing to remember is that a demonstration is only ever done to give people an idea of what is possible. If a demonstration of a "1 inch punch" showed a person hardly moving, then walking off slowly because they had been badly winded, people would not be as impressed as seeing someone being propelled backwards. When I started mantis after doing tai chi, I had a few problems, because I was often in push mode rather than strike mode. Pushes do not hurt much, but move people. In fact this reminds me of a kick boxing class years ago, where the instructor demonstrated the difference between full contact sparring and medium contact. With medium contact, strikes were more like pushes, so that judges could easily see when a strike landed well. In full contact, you are only interested in hurting your oponent, so your strikes go through them, rather than push them.

I think the main thing to remember is that a demonstration is almost always done to "sell" something, so it has to look impressive. I am sure if someone did a one inch punch to your solar plexus with the intention of hurting/winding, and not pushing, you would feel it.

[Mephariel]

That's a push.

Try it yourself. Stand your assistant square on with his legs next to each other, and put something like a chair behind them for them to trip over.

Don't ring for any ambulances though! That one inch punch doesn't hurt a bit.

LOL, Bruce Lee did that punch without a chair. I never seen anyone fall backwards like that with a one inch push even if you do think it is just a push.

[Red Rum]

Hmmmm

Well I've dabbled in escrima on and off for the past few years but I wouldn't criticize a person posting comments about escrima on here....

[medic06]

what wing chun have you done and for how long?

I've dabbled in WC off and on over the years.

[Red Rum]

You guys are right with regards to the 'one inch punch'. I have seen a few martial artists demonstrate the punch this way and it is technically a push.
I saw one demo where they used a telephone book to cover the chest and the guy was leaning back, ready to be pushed backwards. It was a blatant set up designed to fool the audience

To be fair, in most cases when it is performed it is a lot harder than just a push (it does wind you), but we do not practice it like that. The idea of a wing chun punch is to hit from a close quarter (clinch) position. You don't measure off to someone and strike them. That is just a demo.

In reality, the idea is that you can hit with the same power at any range, whether it be three inches, one inch or even less.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't claim that a wing chun punch is better if it wasn't. Although I'm a kung fu instructor, I enjoy boxing just as much.

In sparring (especially if there is lots of room to move), a wing chun fighter would have no chance against a boxer or kickboxer.

Not sure what you guys mean by McDojo. Do you mean schools that pop up everywhere? I say as long as the instructors are good then why not?

Kamon has 45 classes and the instructors are top notch. Even the students at Green one level tend to know more about martial arts than most black belts in other arts. I think the same can be said about Alan Orr and James Sinclair's federations

As for medic06 - what wing chun have you done and for how long?

[medic06]

A lot of people on this forum have never gone to a wing chun class (that's their choice) which is making this whole thing pointless. I have never done fencing, so I wouldn't presume to say that an art I know is better than fencing.

I know Youtube and myspace has all different kinds of wing chun videos, but you can't really see how hard the punches are - just like when you watch a boxing match and people get knocked out by a little clip on the nose.

My suggestion to people who read this and have doubts, go to wing chun schools (good ones) - Kamon, Alan Orr's, James Sinclair's etc

Most do boxing as an add on to the art, but will still tell you that in a streetfight, wing chun is more advisable

Quite a few of those posting here have trained in WC. I'm just seeing if you have an understanding beyond the typical WC dogma that you have been spewing for the past three months.