BajiQuan

[jubaji]

Therefore, I'm not even qualified to talk about the TCMAs.

Of course not. Only KOTF is.

[Tom Yum]

I've stuided Chinese-influenced systems but not gong fu; those where one of the founders was either Chinese, then went on to another country in the 20th century or came from a Buddhist temple. Therefore, I'm not even qualified to talk about the TCMAs, which I admit I am an outsider.

The only appreciation I have is from what I see and from what has been demonstrated on me from talking to/hanging out with TCMA practitioners.

I'm not here to defend any particular system, because I have an appreciation for martial arts, period. Whether that system is qin-na or capeira and can use its training realistically, I am interested.

[kingoftheforest]

BY the book or buy the book.

Well without lifting or spinning his heel, which steals from his root and steals power, a good CMA practitioner can throw from one side of his body
1. A palm strike
2. A back fist
3. A punch
4. An elbow and
5. A shoulder strike

A boxer can throw
1. a punch and
2. An elbow

2 to 5 ratio those are seriously steep odds in Vegas my friend.

The reason I don't mention gloves or conditioning is because I don't play sports and I train to avoid being hit.

If you stop a CMA practitioners leg from moving he can still strike with the same amount of power. If you stop a boxers leg from moving you steal almost all his power and he has to over extend himself.

And rolling your shoulder up opens your mid section to all kinds of kicks and knees so the protection to your head is only covering one soft spot and exposing numerous others including your groin.

I understand perfectly why the boxing punch is throw the way it is and have compared it to the way a CMA practitioner punches. You seem to just be spouting things written in a text book again.

Explain to me again the dynamics of how you throw a CMA strike? I can compare the two together since I have practiced them both. How much have you trained in CMA's. This is not asked to be rude but I'd like to know if I am so closed minded where you are gathering your comparison from. I would be more than happy to hear what experience you have in the CMA's Dick.

I am not trying to be a know it all but no one seems to be able to make more of a comparison I just see people typing what is said in every book about boxing. What about body and muscle alignment. Doesn't a boxer have to draw back before his next strike? What defense does a boxer have against a kick when he throws his strike? These are things that are covered already when I strike in the manner I do using CMA principles.

[DickHardman]

Yes that's it Ghost. I realized that I am talking out of my ass. I realized that when a boxer turns his hand over to punch with the traditional boxing punch that it changes the muscle dynamic in his body stealing all the power generated from his root and taking the whip out. I realized that in changing the lineup of tendons and muscles in his body that he must use his shoulder strength to put power behind the punch.

for someone who claims to have studied boxing and muay thai for even the very short period of time as you claim to have, you seem to know little about why they punch their way.

I realized that he has to move his rear leg forward which is not mentioned in any explanation of a boxing punch or he will land flat on his face. This movement of the legs eats up the power generated by his hips.

not true. the rear leg doesnt need to move foreward at all when a boxing style punch is thrown, the heel just spins in order to utilize more power from the hip, in conjunction with the shoulder rolling forwards to maximize the utilization of the entire body for power.

I realized that only in the jab the weakest of boxing punches does a boxer not need to create an arch to generate force in his punch causing it to take longer for the punch to reach my opponent, leaving more of my body exposed for his attack.

the arch you are referring to is the shoulder rolling up to the chin, which serves a few purposes you seemed to have left out. you claim it exposes you more, but it does the opposite when you punch and roll your shoulder up to your chin, it provides protection to your jaw in addition to maximizing entire body power in punches. it also saves your elbow joint by allowing you to punch fast and powerfully with your whole body without the need of fully extending your elbow joint.

I realized that most boxing matches go 6-10 rounds of guys landing these so called astronomically hard punches on each others body's and head's not causing knockouts, sometimes causing knockdowns.

this shows your inexperience with boxing. you dont seem to mention how tough and how conditioned these superior athletes are. you also forget to mention the large gloves they wear that makes knockouts a bit harder than normal. and you also dont seem to mention how many knockouts and knockdowns actually occur in boxing.

[kingoftheforest]

I guess prior experience only counts for some people here.

Yeah I guess breaking things down into body mechanics and explaining the theory behind the two very diffrent ways of punching is just close mindedness. The fact that I have studied boxing for 3 years Muy Thai for 2 years Tae Kwon Do for 5 years and wrestling and judo for 3 years doesn't mean squat. That's all close mindedness there.

While most striking arts claim to use whole body and in text book theory seem to the very fact that the muscle alignment of boxing steals power from itself the way the punch is thrown means nothing to people who feel they must be right.

The fact that practitioners of certain CMA's can punch just as hard standing on one leg as on two proves it's a diffrent dynamic and generates power in a diffrent way from boxing. Throw a boxing punch at your heavy bag standing on one leg see how hard it hits.

I have studied many various arts so to say I am close minded is a little off base. Just because I found what I was looking for in Combatives and CMA's doesn't make me close minded since I have trained and studied in various other arts as well.

CMA's are all about body mechanics and efficiency in motion that has been the whole theory for hundreds of years, finding the most effective way to use your body as a weapon. They go deep into muscle alignment and tendon alignment to generate power. If people looked more into it and studied it they would find this out. But I guess only close minded people do their own research instead of just waiting for the DVD to come out.


I have yet to see anyone give as detailed an explanation as I have on why the body mechanics of one punch work better than the other though, so I guess in my close mindedness of studying both methods everyone else is just keeping the answer in their pockets.

So if someone would like to enlighten me I would be more than happy to listen and politely discuss what differences we see in the real world mechanics of the methods of punching. Or you can keep putting me down and my ideas but the print stands for itself as to who has really put in the time and work to figure things out without being spoon fed the answer.

[DickHardman]

it seems to me the cma guys are as closed minded as the people they complain about. the cma guys are really no better, as they feel their way is the only correct way too. look at kotf trying to make it seem as if cmas are they only arts that use the entire body to strike, and dismissing others when they try to mention that other arts utilize the same concepts as well. this may be why the cma guys on this forum get flak, they act the same way as the dudes they complain about.

[kingoftheforest]

I follow the golden rule.

exactly, i do get tired of this crap.
Perhaps he realised what he said made no sense and has backed out.

Yes that's it Ghost. I realized that I am talking out of my ass. I realized that when a boxer turns his hand over to punch with the traditional boxing punch that it changes the muscle dynamic in his body stealing all the power generated from his root and taking the whip out. I realized that in changing the lineup of tendons and muscles in his body that he must use his shoulder strength to put power behind the punch.

I realized that he has to move his rear leg forward which is not mentioned in any explanation of a boxing punch or he will land flat on his face. This movement of the legs eats up the power generated by his hips.

I realized that only in the jab the weakest of boxing punches does a boxer not need to create an arch to generate force in his punch causing it to take longer for the punch to reach my opponent, leaving more of my body exposed for his attack.

I realized that most boxing matches go 6-10 rounds of guys landing these so called astronomically hard punches on each others body's and head's not causing knockouts, sometimes causing knockdowns. I also realized that boxing is a sport which has rules. Fighting arts, real ones, don't have rules because they can be used anywhere any time, without gloves, a ring , or referees.


I realized that by keeping the fist aligned with the arm and not turning it against the natural body position by not stepping and by not needing to create an arch, that I
1. Can reach my opponent faster.
2. Can generate more force from my hips and not over extend my body.
3. Continue that force into my opponent without losing it.
4. Keep more of my body covered and defended because I don't need to arch my punch.
5. Knock my opponent back and or to the ground from a shorter distance.
6. Not give up my root by raising my rear heel to throw the punch.

Of course this is all against the popular opinion and I am sure wrong. Plus I am just being a superior jackass here. I mean why should I be defensive when all my other posts on CMA's are basically ridiculed here.

I would be more than happy to be polite and clear on what I am saying but when what you say is instantly ridiculed called weak and then people ask for a polite explanation I don't feel I should do anything but return the favor in kind.


The only person in this thread who has even been remotely polite is Tom Yum but that seems to be old hat for this forum.

So there's your explanation I am sure you won't be happy with it, but if people want to start being polite I'll be more than happy to return the favor and stop with the sarcasm. Mike Brewer was more than kind when I started reposting, he was polite with me and I had no problem returning the favor. I even had no problem having civil conversations with Dariannation. But if you just want to ridicule and be rude then expect the same in return.

Thank you
KOTF

[Ghost]

who are you talking about? nobody here on this thread is giving you a hard time (except maybe jubaji)

youre being so allusive with your explanations

exactly, i do get tired of this crap.
Perhaps he realised what he said made no sense and has backed out.

[knifethrower]

Wow, how did you punch yourself in the back? You must be flexible as all hell.

Hello my fine, furry little friend














….you can do better than that….

[Tom Yum]

i know what the one inch punch is .

That is the power behind the Chinese arts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keS3OTNger8

Its not mystical. It takes a while for someone to learn how to coordinate their entire body to generate enough power to knock someone down from 1" away - another reason why it seems CMA pracitioners in the internal styles like to move in at body-to-body range when they fight, I suppose.

You've got someone in your face, hitting you with enough power to send you flying from an angle you're not expecting at a distance you can barely see...

almost like boxing in some ways.

but why claim or allude that punches from Boxing in particular use "sheer muscle force from one area of the body"? that was ridiculous. good punching technique is good punching technique no matter how close the punch is thrown from. it will still be delivered very hard using your legs, hips, torso, shoulders. throwing a great punch is one thing, knowing how to defend one or set on up is another

I've looked at pictures of Sifu James McNeil in some old articles of his about the internal arts and guess which techniques he uses to defend against punches: slipping and moving in at angles, parrying etc - the same techniques you learn in the boxing gym.

His counterattack was different than a boxers.

A boxer will slip outside (or sometimes inside a punch), while simultaneously sliding in to fire off a nasty shovel hook to the opponents liver leaving him feeling empty inside, hopefully down to his knees, hook upstairs knocking him silly if not out and then jab out to get back into boxing range or work the inside

McNeil slipped the punch outside, slided in, but simultaneosly palm-slapped his opponents groin on the way in, swept his opponents leg, while smashing him down at the same time.

Hard punches will hurt anyone. Yes, I've seen 140-lb boxers knock the crap out of larger, lesser skilled fighters in brawls or while sparring.

At the same time, if you pick the groin as a target and can make your opponent loose their balance that could buy the time you need to run or stomp etc.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Thanks for the input knifethrower. I can tell a lot of people on this forum feel that even though they have not studied as much into MA's in general due to their ignorance (which isn't a put down because ignorance is only temporary if you try to resolve it) in the statements they make that explaining things to them is a waste of time. If someone is rude to me then asks me to help them understand something they constantly put down I don't feel it's worth the waste of my time.

who are you talking about? nobody here on this thread is giving you a hard time (except maybe jubaji)

youre being so allusive with your explanations

[jubaji]

Are there some who "laugh at" TMA? Yes some, but not so many, I think.

Let's face it, there really are some out there in the TMA 'community' who speak of chi balls and mystical powers and super-human abilities who turn off anyone who takes MA seriously and is not some over-excited teenager or LARPing adult of arrested development.

Then there are some, not so far removed from the aforementioned when you look at it carefully, who are so desperate to take themselves seriously and fabricate an impenetrable air of authority around themselves that they try to pretend they are looking down on anyone who doesn't fawn over the unquestionable expertise that they demand to have acknowledged. Anyone who so much as questions anything they claim "just doesn't get it" and is unworthy to bathe in the glory of their wisdom... yikes

If people would just talk reasonably, rationally, and realistically about TMA then more people would really learn about it and be drawn to it. This might be seen as threatening to those who are hiding in a neighborhood they are comfortable that no one else will drive through, but it would be very good for TMA in general.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

Start by finding yourself an explanation of the one inch punch. When you learn how to do that you'll began to understand a little.

It's much more satisfying to figure these things out through your own research.

i know what the one inch punch is . but why claim or allude that punches from Boxing in particular use "sheer muscle force from one area of the body"? that was ridiculous. good punching technique is good punching technique no matter how close the punch is thrown from. it will still be delivered very hard using your legs, hips, torso, shoulders. throwing a great punch is one thing, knowing how to defend one or set on up is another

[Tom Yum]

A lot of the comments on this thread demonstrate why certain CMA folks can't manage a conversation with anyone except other CMA folks (and often aren't taken seriously by anyone else). Might want to think about what really lies behind that...

As an outside observer, with experience in non-Chinese traditional arts and combat sports, I believe there is a heavy cloud of Mc Dojoism that sits about the traditional arts, especially with the under 25 crowd. UFC 1 took place in 1992 - so anyone who is 25 or younger today was 10 or younger then. I was just getting my damn drivers permit.....so I could get a job to afford MA classes and take myself to MA classes without hassling the folks lol.

I believe viewers got a bad taste of the traditional arts when they saw Fred Ettish, beaten and bloody trying to kick from the ground by an out of shape kickboxer. It begged the question: can a blackbelt in traditional martial arts really fight?

The answer is yes, but the unfortunate reality is that around that time, the traditional arts became big business, pay bills and what not so they had to provide what customers wanted - flashy kicks, fancy hand techniques and mystical culture. Your average MA customer came to class to get into shape, build confidence, learn about culture and lastly learn how to fight. And anything that even slightly resembled discomfort almost ensured that the student would not return.

The dojangs/dojos/guans that taught their students how to fight could not compete with the mystical marketing, power rangers classes for kids and fancy uniforms. I switched schools for alot of these reasons and got the piss knocked out of me by a real master who wasn't afraid to teach me something that worked; when I left for college I ran into several instructors in the traditional arts with similar 'prove-it' styles and loved it.

I can see why KOTF gets defensive in these discussions - alot of young guys don't know about good, reputable instructors in the TMAs because the MMA marketing machine is so huge, the cloud of McDojoism (which has some basis in reality) and because there is not marketing for realistic TMA systems.

I enjoy MMA as much as the next guy and have even trained in the arts it represents, but I've seen the otherside of effective TMA too, which is why I've defended many of the arts that are normally laughed at by others.

[kingoftheforest]

Well folks looks like the comedy club has opened up on this thread of defend so much for conversations.


See you guys in another thread some time till the children show up again. I'll be taking my input elsewhere.

Tom here's your reason why I know nobody takes what a CMA practitioner has to say seriously. The best one this forum ever had gets ridiculed by the wannabe stand up act.

Later

KOTF out.