Wing Chun used in Street Fight

[Tom Yum]

Something about attempting to tap out BJJ style in a street encounter that just doesn't quite translate.

Nothing was mentioned about tapping out during a street encounter, liberty.

I think biting, gouging, crush moves are good to have (see my mention of the RAT and Kino Mutai systems) but having a fundamental base of grappling is going to be more helpful when dealing with skilled grapplers otherwise they will control you most of the time.

I can see how an eye gouge could definitely turn the tables against someone who has the mount on you, skilled or not - if you take out their eyes, that's enough pain and distraction to bridge them off; and if you get caught in their guard, the groin could be exposed to a crush. Simple examples of how you could use these moves in the grappling range when the action stalls.

These moves could work as a pre-emptive attack against a grappler before the fighters collide or during a stand-up exchange, if you can land them. BJ Pen landed an accidental eye strike against Matt Huges and it definitely took him out for a while; Mike Tyson bit Holyfields ear and it took the fight out of Holyfield. Groin attacks? Keith Hackney punched Joe Son in the balls about 5 times during the early UFC's when he had a side mount and a not so secure head lock. Son released the head lock and got him into a guard, I believe. These examples took place during a stand up exchange or on the ground without action.

Could these moves work against a skilled grappler who shoots in full speed or already has you in a submission hold? Unlikely. Skilled grapplers can take a man down in the blink of an eye, check out any clip of a good judo or wrestling tournament. They don't come in half-assed, telegraphing their arms outward, waiting to be punched/kicked.....

The side choke (or arm-triangle) would make an eye gouge or groin crush escape impossible because the grappler has a good defensive position - the defender's closest arm and neck are tightly pinned against the attackers arm and if done on the ground, his legs are in a particularly stable position. There are other moves take advantage of positions where the defender cannot easily reach the attacker.

Variations of the rear-naked choke seize the defenders closest arm, rendering it useless for groin crushes or eye gouges. Biting may not be an option, given that the choke is tight and restricts movement of the defenders neck/chin.

Yep, must be I lack a fundamental base of grappling - so that's why UFC World Champs lose inspite of their years in the ring (or octagon) as world class fighters. LOL!

I have no idea what level of grappler or fighter you are liberty? I don't presume anything about your grappling skills - you could be a world class fighter?

In my humble opinion, MMA style fighting is great for head to head style fighting against one opponent without weapons.

Well, at least Chunners will escape any further "abuse" (call to reality) for now.

I don't know if you've been on the forum for a while, but I'm not one of the guys that says wing chun sucks because its not used in the ring, although I think Orr has demonstrated some good wingchun skills integrated into an MMA style.

If wing chun is never tested in live training environments (or dynamic fighting) its less likely to work when you need it to.

That's my call to reality.

[Liberty]

Eye gouges, bites, groin crushes all have there place. Best time to use one? Whenever you want - but keep in mind you may have to justify it.

Would a groin crush help you escape from a guillotine? It might, but if groin crush is your only answer for an escape because you don't have a fundamental base of grappling, you might find yourself getting dropped on your face or strangled to death if the groin crush merely pisses the other guy off.

Check out Vunak's RAT and Kino Mutai. Good stuff!

I must be living in another reality. Such strikes/techniques have worked for/against me, when there was no other alternative for myself or the other guy in physical street encounters. Something about attempting to tap out BJJ style in a street encounter that just doesn't quite translate. Yep, must be I lack a fundamental base of grappling - so that's why UFC World Champs lose inspite of their years in the ring (or octagon) as world class fighters. LOL!

Well, at least Chunners will escape any further "abuse" (call to reality) for now.

[bodhisattva]

Eye gouges, bites, groin crushes all have there place. Best time to use one? Whenever you want - but keep in mind you may have to justify it.

Would a groin crush help you escape from a guillotine? It might, but if groin crush is your only answer for an escape because you don't have a fundamental base of grappling, you might find yourself getting dropped on your face or strangled to death if the groin crush merely pisses the other guy off.

Check out Vunak's RAT and Kino Mutai. Good stuff!

Totally agree, Tom. If a guy has a solid wrestling structure, biting and gouging can be quite helpful to get a little movement in a tight hold...

But, still yet, biting is kind of a nasty choice in this day and age of blood diseases.. Hepatitis, Aids, and others... Yuck.

and eye gouging is going to sit kind of roughly with the jury. I mean, if some guy has killed your child and raped your wife and you come home and fight him and gouge his eye out - no problem...probably.

But if it's some ego battle at the local pub - things are going to get litigious I believe..

[jubaji]

Don't even question it, Jub. It's the old "I'll just BITE YOU if you wrestle me."

People don't realize how stupid it is to bite a man when he can already outwrestle you. He wrestles Liberty down, he gets on top of Liberty, Liberty bites him - and now he's really really pissed.

Good thinking, Liberty. Just bite him, or grab his balls. It's S U U R E to work.

-Dwayne

LOL!!!!!

[Tom Yum]

Eye gouges, bites, groin crushes all have there place. Best time to use one? Whenever you want - but keep in mind you may have to justify it.

Would a groin crush help you escape from a guillotine? It might, but if groin crush is your only answer for an escape because you don't have a fundamental base of grappling, you might find yourself getting dropped on your face or strangled to death if the groin crush merely pisses the other guy off.

Check out Vunak's RAT and Kino Mutai. Good stuff!

[bodhisattva]

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Don't even question it, Jub. It's the old "I'll just BITE YOU if you wrestle me."

People don't realize how stupid it is to bite a man when he can already outwrestle you. He wrestles Liberty down, he gets on top of Liberty, Liberty bites him - and now he's really really pissed.

Good thinking, Liberty. Just bite him, or grab his balls. It's S U U R E to work.

-Dwayne

[DickHardman]

a piece of martial arts history....

look at the legendary footage yourselves. in all honesty, there are 11 year old kids at the place i train at who are whitebelts in bjj that could more than likely hold their own against either of these wing chun masters, and there are a few students in the childrens program in the 8-13 year old range that would outright decimate both of these guys.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk[/YOUTUBE]

[DickHardman]

The second vid reminds me of the Cheung vs Boztepe fight, where two guys who have spent their lives "trapping" run at eachother and roll around on the floor like a couple of school kids.

what are you talking about? i saw that fight, and it was one of the best displays of martial arts application ive ever seen. seeing that video made me a true believe in wing chun anti grappling methods as well, as the need for vigorous training in grappling had become completely nulified by slaps, finger jabs, testicle grabs, and the furious wing chun chain punching that emin used to incapacitate cheung after he successfully took him down.

im still waiting to get my tickets to the emin boztep 2008 royal carribean wing chun cruise were we will get to train with emin during the day, and then have dinner and play craps with him at night, while beautiful women serve us champaign and mr arieson is stuck at home being tricked into making diet menus for matt blake who is really just jubaji.

[jubaji]

(many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), .

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[Liberty]

I'm pleased to say that most UK based wing chun is good and holds its own
Kamon are soon to do a Black belts page on our website, showing the numerous students who have attained black belts in other arts and yet still choose wing chun
We have boxers, kickboxers, grapplers, TKd and Judo guys of amazing quality
Kevin Chan also got his black belt in BJJ over the weekend

So Kamon must be doing something right...

http://www.kamonwingchun.co.uk/VideoLibrary.asp

I don't know; it depends on what you mean by "amazing quality. Far too many clips of Wing Chun on youtube by every "master" and or student at every level purport thier having been blown away by the video they post. One watches these clip only to discover once more it's poster meant something along the lines of, "Wow, look at "how fast/skillfull/dealy/etc.," is against a cooperative lackey/wooden dummy or what have you..."

In other words, the clips poster is impressed by demos having nothing to do with actual fighting skill. So, "amazing skill" is vague - amazing in what sense?

Again if your "Kamon must be doing something right..." means that they are attempting to evolve their Wing Chun into an actual fighting art (many BJJ moves/holds/submissions would not qualify as they are easily escaped via a nice juicy bite/eye-gouge/groin crush, etc), then okay. The jury, however, is still out.

I say all this respectfully. I have to believe that given Yip Man's, Hawkins Cheung's, Wong Sheung Leung's and Bruce Lee's own streetfighting legacy - especially Lee's, given the eye witness testimony of people of high integrity (the late James Lee, Taky Kimura, Dan Inosanto, Hawkins himself, et al) who were blown away by his Wing Chun, that the art, in the right hands is an awesome one. And Lee supposedly knew just a third of the art!

So, it's on you, the Wing Chun individual, as much as it is on the art's continued evolvement, and that, along the lines of what it's many practitioners claim - street fight science, not sport.

[DickHardman]

Wing Chun guy (9 years) proficiently closing the gap against an agressive (freestyle)opponent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob1EUZA24S8

why do guys like this try to make it seem as if they are all about wing chun, and then try to use bjj when it actually gets down to it?

[Liberty]

"full contact" free sparring. Alexander Zhuravlev & Oleg Sultanov classes.... Lame, at first, then picks up, but...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id-UIcxMJNQ[/YOUTUBE]

[bodhisattva]

Yeah, unfortunately, though I personally have nothig against the art, there does not appear to be any footage of good Wing Chun in application out there. When "proficient," it's poor at best. Then again, can't say they don't ask for it - have you seen the one of Cheung aganst a boxer. The thing is pathetic.

I don't have any problem with Wing Chun as a series of moves and fun games that look like fighting. If people like that description, and enjoy wing chun (I really do enjoy the trapping drills, but when do I have time to do them when I a) work b) train boxing c) train striking in the clinch d) train throwing in the clinch e) train control positions, striking and submitting on the ground..)

When do I have time to do wing chun, considering it doesn't work?

--

However, I do do do have a problem with people who teach Wing Chun and call it a martial art. It is not martial. It might be an "art" in the sense of "dance" but it is not a "martial" art.

I think those teachers commit fraud. I think it's a shabby thing to do.

[bodhisattva]

Not sure I follow, Red...

Kevin Chan got his black belt in Brazilian Jiujitsu, so Kamon Wing Chun is doing somethig right?

huh?

I understand what he means. He's saying these guys work in functional arts like BJJ, and they choose to do Wing Chun also. So he figures the wing chun teacher must know something of use if BJJ guys do it.

It's kind of like me seeing that you (Mike Brewer) box, but still insist the wing chun is worthwhile. I respect long term boxers with lots of skill, and respect their opinions on many subjects.

So when I hear you (Mike) support kata and wing chun style trapping drills, I can't figure it.

I'm pretty sure that's what he means.


Personally? If there were a wing chun school nearby me, and I found out a few BJJ black belts were going there to train Wing Chun - I'd probably get really, really curious and go see what the hell they are doing.

If they were doing Wing Chun trapping as I know it, I'd leave.

If they were doing some new, functional version of Wing Chun trapping (a.k.a Greco Roman) I'd stay.


And even if they were doing standard WC trapping, I'd probably stay at least long enough to befriend the BJJ guys and set up some later times to train together informally.

[Red Rum]

Yeah, unfortunately, though I personally have nothig against the art, there does not appear to be any footage of good Wing Chun in application out there. When "proficient," it's poor at best. Then again, can't say they don't ask for it - have you seen the one of Cheung aganst a boxer. The thing is pathetic.

To set Brewer off (via a quote) "In memory of a once fluid art, crammed and distorted by the classcal mess." May Wing Chun some day find it's way back.

I'm pleased to say that most UK based wing chun is good and holds its own
Kamon are soon to do a Black belts page on our website, showing the numerous students who have attained black belts in other arts and yet still choose wing chun
We have boxers, kickboxers, grapplers, TKd and Judo guys of amazing quality
Kevin Chan also got his black belt in BJJ over the weekend

So Kamon must be doing something right...

http://www.kamonwingchun.co.uk/VideoLibrary.asp