Wing Chun let me down in a fight

[jubaji]

I think I've already said that some training sucks, it doesn't change the fact that there is no "it" that didn't work beside himself.

[kanik]

I realize some people have been offended by my post..

jubaji you seem very angry with my post I had no intention of causing any emotional stress on your part. I accept responsibility for my actions.

Well, you say any style doesnt work, and somone is allways gonna mentally kill you. Dont worry about Jubaji, coz Jubaji is just a generally very cranky person, you know how people say "did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?" my guess is that he has no right side ^_^

[jubaji]

"it" does not exist

So jubaji, it's your contention that a person can attend a shitty martial arts school with the worst training methods imaginable, guided by experience-free morons and taught by people who've never seen so much as a kindergarten sandbox scuffle and still be a fully capable fighter?

Its my contention that if someone attends a shitty school and learns shit that is HIS fault and the ass-kicking he gets still belongs to him and him alone.

[jubaji]

So how is he to know without any experience what constitutes a good school or a shitty one?

That's his problem. If he doesn't want the ass-kicking he'll go out of his way to find out. If he didn't do any research, that's his problem. If he trained somewhere for a month and noticed that neither he nor anyone else sparred or mixed it up for real then he was asking for what he got. Excuses wouldn't have helped him when he was getting beat down, and they won't help him (or you) justify it later.

[jubaji]

What I'm saying is that despite the hard lesson that sometimes, you need to go find something that won't let you down, the fact remains that getting there means something let you down.

Bullshit. Only the person can let the person down. "It" does not exist and can't fight for you or take the blame for you.

[g-bells]

I realize some people have been offended by my post..

jubaji you seem very angry with my post I had no intention of causing any emotional stress on your part. I accept responsibility for my actions.

your intitled to oppinion, no need for apologises

[kanik]

I agree with Jubaji here... You cant blame somthing else for your own error. Yes it is his error because (no offene to you man) of innefficient training. It is never the fall of the school, but rather the student i reckon. I have been to many a shit martial art, but if you simply take what works, and forget about the rest... and there is allways SOMTHING that works.... then you should be right. for example, I went to a shitty... very shitty karate school. Yet I could still find SOME things that worked, like the basic karate punched mixed with a jab... which I was never tought but its just common sence. Also a very interesting thing is that you CAN teach yourself to be an awesome killing machine all on your own. My friend can kick like a freakin' demon and he has never had any formal training in kicks at all. he attended one Gung fu where they would only do kicks to the knees and shins very rarely. He learnt to kick from tricking, video games, and martiala rts movies ^_^ how awesome is that!? Best part is, he can USE them, and use them very very well. Yeah its a bit off topic... but this one time he was sparring some hapkido black-belt, and the guy kicked at his head, and he kinda half blocked half dodged, moved inwards and took he's one remaining leg out from under him and made the guy fall flat on his back, that was funny. I hate fighting him too... bad experiances what with the whole kicks to the neck and head... Seriously, they come out of no-where...

[jubaji]

Jubaji, you're all hung up on the "it" that doesn't exist.

Yep, that's pretty much my point here. I appreciate the fact that you have conceded the point many times arleady.

[jubaji]

I started off with a variation of Hung Gar when I was a kid (it was what my Dad knew and was willing to teach me), and that worked fine for me until I got to a town where everyone was a boxer or wrestler. Then I got my ass kicked.

Yeah, sorry about that. No hard feelings?

[Knuckles&Knees]

WC did not let you down, you let yourself down! Remember what makes the system work is you, the system is only the tool or the program to get it done. Its like iceskating, and if you fall on the ice and bust your ass you blame the skates for making you fall.

I don't know... isn't that a little to easily said? If you study boxing for a year for a couple hours for two or 3 times a week you should develop enough to at least "hold your own" against an "average" street fighter.

[jubaji]

No, no hard feelings. It was a valuable lesson.

Actually, I still remember the guy's name (it was Don Huber), and I kicked the beejeezus out of him the next year. Elbowed him in the face and buried his front teeth in the little spit guard on the drinking fountain. So I guess as long as there's no hard feelings on your part either, we're square!

How old were you that you even remember his name?

[kanik]

I'm laughing to myself a little reading this thread, mostly because this is probably exactly how most of us learned what we wanted to study. I started off with a variation of Hung Gar when I was a kid (it was what my Dad knew and was willing to teach me), and that worked fine for me until I got to a town where everyone was a boxer or wrestler. Then I got my ass kicked. I started doing boxing and kickboxing as a result. By your model, I agree - the ass kicking was my fault because I didn't realize the problems with trying to use what I knew against what they knew and I didn't have enough talent or ability at that time to overcome the skill gaps. So I modified what I was training to accomodate the lesson.

Jubaji, you're all hung up on the "it" that doesn't exist. Well forgive me, but I'm speaking in more pragmatic terms. For the sake of simplicity, let's look at my own story. "It," in my case, is defined as the stuff I had at the time I got my ass kicked. "It" is my level of ability, my technical knowledge, my attributes. In a nutshell, "it" is my style, my knowledge, AND ME. If I get my ass kicked, then it all let me down. I need to change what I'm doing to keep that from happening again. Sometimes, that just means changing my approach to the style itself. Other times, it means recognizing that a given method isn't living up to my needs. At no time in any of this (or any argument previous to this) am I taking away any measure of personal responsibility. I'm not blaming anything to a point that it eclipses my ability (or responsibility) to change it. I agree that the ultimate reponsibility rests with the student himself. He has to make the decisions and find the knowledge. He is in the driver's seat.

But that doesn't change the fact (and it's a fact we've agreed on several times here) that the style he's learning may not fit the bill.

Ifa carpenter tries to build a house by pounding nails with a flathead screwdriver, then he's an idiot and he needs to choose a different tool for the job, right? But does that change the fact that a screwdriver is a miserable tool for pounding nails? No, it doesn't. Those are two independent facts, and both are true.

1. The carpenter should choose a better tool for the job at hand.
2. Screwdrivers are lousy hammers.

In this case, all I'm saying is that our host chose to fight with a set of skills that wasn't suited to the matter at hand, and he needs to choose a better way. These two statements are also both true:

1. The fighter needs to find a better method for fighting effectively.
2. His current school may not prepare him well enough for real fighting.

I'm not arguing against personal responsibility. In fact, go back and look at my very first reply to the man. I told him to screw faith - go out and find something that works. All I'm arguing - and you've agreed with this - is that the school very well may suck the big green donkey teabag.

Get all philosophical about the absence of any "it" if you choose, but again, I'm being purely pragmatic. Two things failed him that day. The first and most important was his own choices and lack of experience. The second was whatever training he took into that fight. Now I agree, it's on him to fix all of it, but saying there's no "it" is akin to saying "It really shouldn't matter that your screwdriver sucks at pounding nails. Keep on using it. There's really no 'it' to worry about, so any old tool should work. Maybe try a hand saw next time."

With that, I disagree.

Hmm.... Thats was interesting. Allways full of knowledge eh? Good reply man!

[jubaji]

I was in the third grade. I carried a grudge far better in those days. I still remember the name of the first guy I ever knocked out, but only because it was Rocky. That was in the first half of my first grade year! 6 years old! Dropped him twice in the same day. Once in self-defense, and once because I'm a complete prick.

Sheeeeesh, you're a prick with a good memory!

[Knuckles&Knees]

Actually, it's nothing like that. It's like paying for skating lessons and having a coach who never puts you on the ice at all. He talks theory, but he never actually teaches you to skate. Then you get out on the ice and bust your ass. Part of that is the training you got, and I don't think it's wrong to suggest that piss poor training is at least part of the reason you can't skate. It doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to find better instruction, but it also doesn't absolve a worthless instructor or his worthless training methods either.

If the style and the instructor shoulder no blame at all, then why do so many people here feel so absolutely justified in trashing poor training methods? Why do people have no problem at all calling some gyms "McDojos?" After all, "it" doesn't matter, right? Of course it does. It just doesn't fit too conveniently into the argument.

I agree.

I can't speak much for WC because my only real experience with it is with some things from JKD classes like the "straight blast" and trapping. Honestly, neither one I'm fond with, although I can perceive potential future benefit from some of the trapping exercises, if for nothing else to flow from a blocked punch to a back fist. But the JKD instruction, or rather curriculum at our school, as well as my Sifu, and as well as the senior students, all provide and atmosphere and training ground where one can certainly develop as a fighter and show improvement with useful tools within several months (less than a year). From learning how to punch, block, and move to grappling, kicking, kneeing and so forth.

I mean I like Ninjitsu under the Genbukan and I may one day enter back down that path. But to be honest I don't think one could study Ninjitsu for a year and improve in practical self defense one lick. The methodology and practical concepts for the streets are just not there. But can you get something out of 4 years training? I would think so. I would think an experienced martial arts could eventually train in Ninjitsu and extract what they prefer and need to out of it as well.

[freefighter2010]

Hi Jubajii,

I suspect i have chosen my words wrongly when posting. I do NOT wish to show any disrespect to WC. The last thing i want is a group of WC triad guys from this forum knocking at my door and kicking shit into me (ok that was a joke) but on a more serious note


I have recently researched this more and discovered thier are several amazing WC guys who are street fighters.

I was shocked to here yesterday of how a WC guy in London took out three skinheads. So all i can say is WC is the shit !! if you competent in it.

My conclusion is in order to get to street fighter level will take years of training in WC. However if i learn a more freestyle form i can learn to defend myself in a short time.

My previous WC teacher made us spend months and months perfecting the first form and punching in thin air. I did get bored at some point and wanted to give it up.

Bullshit. Only the person can let the person down. "It" does not exist and can't fight for you or take the blame for you.