Boxing-Style Wing Chun.

[Grixti]

Well if we are to determine what skill is lets look at all the attributes that make up a good fighter. We have discussed how speed, power, strength can be advantages. We also know that they can be improved with practice and have a limit due to the nature of the human body.

So what other attributes make up a great fighter? Maybe timing, rhythm, reflexes, accuracy. It seems to me that these factors are also what makes up all great fighters. The difference with these attributes is that they are less reliant on the physical ability of the fighter. Obviously the physical is always going to be neccessary, a paralysed person would not be able to practice any of these attributes.

Another way we can seperate these attributes from the former (Speed strength etc) is with the following example:

If you had a group of 12 year old boys and gave them all a baseball bat and asked them to hit a ball that you throw at them, some will do better than others. As they are all of the same age and before puberty its most likely that their physical attributes are similar. But some will definitely be able to hit the ball better than others. I think this would be down to these other attributes (timing, reflexes, accuracy etc)

(This is closely linked to another thread by Michael Wright about talent which is pretty much the same thing)

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=27212

But you point still holds: how far can we seperate these skill/talent attributes from the physical? It doesnt matter how fast your reflexes are if your muscles arent fast too.

So my conclusion? I dont have one really. I think even these other attributes still fall under the same restrictions as the physical ones, the only difference being that they are more natural to the individual. A good fighter may not be naturally strong or fast but he can improve that greatly with training - the same fighter might have outstanding timing, rhythm and reflexes and thats what makes him a world champion.

[Red Rum]

Well this is what we do: Yes we train a variety of moves, but "under pressure" is a bit of a stretch; more like if someone throws a hook, this is a way to block it and then follow up with this. Obviously we do many different types of attack but they lack any kind of freestyle or sparring element.

That is not the 'under pressure' I was talking about. Of course you have to learn moves, but they should be applied in feeding techniques and in sparring. If you aren't doing this now, you will be very shortly

And if you went to places like Croydon, Beckenham, Ealing, Epsom, Sutton, Tooting or Catford you would never even question the notion of padwork

Yes, and i think this is a good idea. I actually went to the sparring seminar and hit a few pads with you Red Rum. And doing light sparring made me realise that its a great way to train for any kind of fight - sport or street - because theres a number of different possible attacks that may come and you have to train your reflexes to dodge the attacks and counter, under a bit more pressure than when you know a particular attack is coming in. This is something that seems to be left out a bit in low level Wing Chun at Kamon. Maybe you do more of that when you are a higher sash but why wait? Why cant you spar Wing Chun?

Because wing chun wasn't designed for sparring. It is majoritively a close quarter art. This is why people do JKD and why Bruce changed wing chun.
In Kamon we use a lot of boxing with a very loose interpretation of the wing chun footwork, and I wouldn't really classify it as wing chun

Im not saying we have to get "hit in the head every night", i think my theory just comes down to 2 ideas:

1. We should practice sparring Wing Chun more, rather than countering hits that we know are going to come the whole time.

Er, have you actually done any feeding techniques? And against a higher sash? At low level, you are learning your way around a punch and building up your movement

2. We should do more work on applying the techniques with power to increase our speed and strength.

You should be doing this in your drills. Or against pads.

Take Muay Thai for example. I have read on this forum that they do a lot of light sparring (no heads being smashed in) but save the speed and power work for someone who is totally padded up:

Anyone who trains in an art like MT, boxing, BJJ, should do it this way. I know people who go 100 mph during a spar and don't really get anything from it.
We again, do this in Kamon
Getting fully padded up is not that great. Its nice having a bit of protection, but I have seen people get padded up like 'Its a Knockout' and you can't really get any power or movement. Which makes it unrealistic.

"In Kamon size and strength dont matter". I dont know about that. Obviously the theory of Wing Chun may enable a mismatched fight to be less... mismatched, but if a 50KG women fights a man three times her weight, she may deflect a few of his punches but when it comes to elbowing him in the head, it might not do much damage. This is where practicing these moves on pads would come in handy, to get that speed, power, accuracy, whatever so that when the woman hits back she might have more of a chance to stun the guy and run. Do you see what im getting at?

A woman (with skill) elbowing me in the head will take me out.
Training on a real person will develop better accuracy than a pad!
But yes pad training is important too, which is why WE DO IT...

"Yet, if I sparred with him, even though he is damn good, it would just be a complete mismatch" You think you could beat Master Chan in a boxing match then?

Everytime....
No, that isn't what I said. I just said that it would be a mismatch. For every punch that he got in, I would be coming in with a whole load more weight.
Kevin Chan had a very short spar with me at Croydon and because of my range, I found that I had a good advantage. It meant that he had to work hard to get in close. Whereas if he had been bigger, he wouldn't have needed to. In wing chun, he can take control of my arms from a long range, stick and come in. With gloves on, under boxing rules, you can't do this. So you are left with the problem of the bigger opponent

I think i might do that. Out of interest, what sash counts as intermediate? I would be interested in seeing exactly that, "where my training is taking me". As i have said in this post, this is an idea/theory from a very limited perspective of the style. But i still think my views are valid. Are any of the things i have suggested - more pad work and freestyle sparring - done in that intermediate class?

Intermediate is usually around Red 2 and above
I would strongly suggest that you ask Kevin Chan the questions you asked on here. I would bet money on the fact that he will say that the grading syllabus has changed to accomodate more sparring.

[Red Rum]

All very clear points Mike. So if size and strength have the advantage when the skill of the fighters is equal this raises the question: Can one reach a level of skill that is so great that it cantr be overcome by the advantages of attributes like size and strength.

This links back to the martial art philosophy-type stuff.

"In Kamon, size and strength dont matter"

Although this statement is a bit broad to be fact it does boil down to the idea of skill having less limits then the attributes we have been talking about(size, speed, strength, reach etc). What i mean by this is that if someone could reach a certain level of skill then these attributes wouldnt matter. There is a limit to strength and speed (look at world records) but is there a limit to skill? What do you guys think?

Let me put it this way...
My training partner (and instructor at Kamon) has pretty much the same skill level as myself, yet I am a foot taller than him.
Due to my extra weight, I am slower, he is faster. Yet I hit with more power
In wing chun, we use the moves that work for our size, but ultimately, he will get attacks in that will stop me, and so will I.
The power and the speed do not matter as much with this kind of fighting.
ie. a kid could chop me in the throat and drop me. If he swung a punch in during a spar, it wouldn't do much

[Grixti]

Because wing chun wasn't designed for sparring. It is majoritively a close quarter art. This is why people do JKD and why Bruce changed wing chun.
In Kamon we use a lot of boxing with a very loose interpretation of the wing chun footwork, and I wouldn't really classify it as wing chun

Getting fully padded up is not that great. Its nice having a bit of protection, but I have seen people get padded up like 'Its a Knockout' and you can't really get any power or movement. Which makes it unrealistic.

I think you kind of missed my points a bit Red Rum.

Now, we do do pad work at Kamon but it is mainly chain punching up and down the room - this is not the padwork i am talking about. We have also started doing a few simple boxing drills on pads - this also is not really what i am talking about. Im not saying i dont agree with these training methods i think we should do more of them but UNDER PRESSURE.

If you watched the link i gave you of the Muay Thai fighter you would see that the trainer was padded up and the practicioner wasnt - this is what i meant by fully padded up. This way one person can practice moves with a lot of power but they have to get their timing right and avoid swings etc. from the padder.

So here are two methods of training that i suggest that might clarify my points:

1. We could have someone who is padded up (like in the Muay Thai Gym) and you have to throw out Wing Chun combinations on him e.g. your moving around he will shout "3 chain punches" and you throw him 3 chain punches, then he might swing for you and shout "elbows" at that point you get inside his guard and elbow. I think you get the idea. This way the student is improving timing and getting tired out because of the power of the hits.

2. Another way would be light sparring interprated for Wing Chun. Here we could have two people who take turns attacking eachother. This would be at a slow pace to start with. One person will throw in a punch or kick and the other has to counter and follow up. This could get more and more complex and the speed would be increased. It would probably also be a good idea to wear MMA gloves and head guards. This way the person intecepting an attack has to read whether the guy is going to punch right, punch left, kick, grab etc. then take the advantage, follow up and maybe takedown.

Maybe you do these things in these "intermediate classes" but i have never seen them done myself.

Basically what im trying to say is whats the point learning a few boxing hits one day, then doing some chain punches the next (all on pads), when you can practice using them in unison WITH POWER AND UNDER PRESSURE.

I want to be able to practice my Wing Chun in a situation that is most like a real fight (i have to say it again - with power under pressure). And i think a lot of people will agree with me that this is one thing a lot of Wing Chun clubs lack. Do you see what i mean Red Rum?

[Ghost]

I think you kind of missed my points a bit Red Rum.

Now, we do do pad work at Kamon but it is mainly chain punching up and down the room - this is not the padwork i am talking about. We have also started doing a few simple boxing drills on pads - this also is not really what i am talking about. Im not saying i dont agree with these training methods i think we should do more of them but UNDER PRESSURE.

If you watched the link i gave you of the Muay Thai fighter you would see that the trainer was padded up and the practicioner wasnt - this is what i meant by fully padded up. This way one person can practice moves with a lot of power but they have to get their timing right and avoid swings etc. from the padder.

So here are two methods of training that i suggest that might clarify my points:

1. We could have someone who is padded up (like in the Muay Thai Gym) and you have to throw out Wing Chun combinations on him e.g. your moving around he will shout "3 chain punches" and you throw him 3 chain punches, then he might swing for you and shout "elbows" at that point you get inside his guard and elbow. I think you get the idea. This way the student is improving timing and getting tired out because of the power of the hits.

2. Another way would be light sparring interprated for Wing Chun. Here we could have two people who take turns attacking eachother. This would be at a slow pace to start with. One person will throw in a punch or kick and the other has to counter and follow up. This could get more and more complex and the speed would be increased. It would probably also be a good idea to wear MMA gloves and head guards. This way the person intecepting an attack has to read whether the guy is going to punch right, punch left, kick, grab etc. then take the advantage, follow up and maybe takedown.

Maybe you do these things in these "intermediate classes" but i have never seen them done myself.

Basically what im trying to say is whats the point learning a few boxing hits one day, then doing some chain punches the next (all on pads), when you can practice using them in unison WITH POWER AND UNDER PRESSURE.

I want to be able to practice my Wing Chun in a situation that is most like a real fight (i have to say it again - with power under pressure). And i think a lot of people will agree with me that this is one thing a lot of Wing Chun clubs lack. Do you see what i mean Red Rum?

You are wise beyond your training time. For combat training, which is what you want, then this type of training, as well as other stuff, is ideal and can be done from virtually day 1.

Padwork done where the padman attacks at random allows you to build up reflexes for defense and the stimulus to counter. To counter hard and fast.
With a good padman he wont even tell you what to counter with, he will catch it on the pads, or give you a trigger such as holding the pad in a certain way.
Good padwork will mix all this up, as you saw in the link you put up the padman was thrown by the fighter and he had to block kicks and so on. This builds a good reactive fighter that can counter hard and fast.

Its by no chance that the combative systems use this type of padwork or very similar for training, it works. Its not something one style owns, i hate notions of that, its just a way to use pads that anyone can use.

In my opinion you are just doing the wrong martial art for what you want. You should be doing something like JKD, MT, boxing etc. It will just suit your mindset better. All the things you are saying point that way.

[Red Rum]

All I would say is that you are training at the wrong Kamon classes for this. The classes I train at train light sparring, heavy sparring, padwork (under pressure) and more.

I have trained and train at Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ and karate clubs and have to say that sparring under pressure is okay, but isn't really suitable for a streetfight. It doesn't mean that they don't work, only that if you spar with a person, 70% of the time, they will have sparred as well or at least know how to throw a punch from distance...

In wing chun we shut the person down and fight them on our terms. It takes time to practice this but it does work.
Grixti - I strongly suggest you attend the Archway demo that is coming up. Ask Sifu these questions and he will give you an honest and fair answer in person.

My other point is that people who join wing chun as beginners do not want to be drilled into intensive padwork or spar. If people want to go fight in the UFc then yeah they can train like that. I do that on a semi professional basis and train every day (even with work, hence the 'semi'). People who are past the age of 30 can't really handle that kind of training on a regular basis
That is why they have MMA gyms. If you went into a martial arts school and they started hitting you (even with gloves) and pushing you around, you wouldn't come back
You learn an art first, and then train it intensively

[Ghost]

All I would say is that you are training at the wrong Kamon classes for this. The classes I train at train light sparring, heavy sparring, padwork (under pressure) and more.

I have trained and train at Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ and karate clubs and have to say that sparring under pressure is okay, but isn't really suitable for a streetfight. It doesn't mean that they don't work, only that if you spar with a person, 70% of the time, they will have sparred as well or at least know how to throw a punch from distance...

In wing chun we shut the person down and fight them on our terms. It takes time to practice this but it does work.
Grixti - I strongly suggest you attend the Archway demo that is coming up. Ask Sifu these questions and he will give you an honest and fair answer in person.

My other point is that people who join wing chun as beginners do not want to be drilled into intensive padwork or spar. If people want to go fight in the UFc then yeah they can train like that. I do that on a semi professional basis and train every day (even with work, hence the 'semi'). People who are past the age of 30 can't really handle that kind of training on a regular basis
That is why they have MMA gyms. If you went into a martial arts school and they started hitting you (even with gloves) and pushing you around, you wouldn't come back
You learn an art first, and then train it intensively

Can you expand on this?

[Red Rum]

Which part dude?
The 'learn the art then train' comment?
In Kamon for example, you learn structures, shapes, body mechanics, energy, etc. Then we spar using good technique. In my experience, if you throw two people together to spar who haven't learnt good techniques, sparring is a mess.

Sparring, for me, should be about applying the techniques you HAVE LEARNT, and not to teach someone how to do a technique

What is the point of hittig a pad if you are hitting it incorrectly?

That is why I like an art that has both the namby pamby stuff (forms, drills etc) and the harder, more intensive stuff (sparring, padwork, conditioning etc)

[Red Rum]

OH MY GOD!

Red Rum, what's the deal? First, Kamon is the only place to go for Wing Chun because they're the only ones who are getting it right. Now, even if you go to Kamon, you might not be getting the good stuff because you're not in the right classes at Kamon? What the hell kind of school is Kamon, anyway? They teach crap to some people and good stuff to others, and I guess you need to know where the secret door is and how to do the secret handshake when you get there?

Grixti seems like someone who has the drive and desire to train for true self-protection. He seems to ask relevant and realistic questions. And now you're telling us that even though he's at your school and that he has actually trained with you personally, he's still not seeing the real Kamon?

Give us a break...

My point (and if you reread my posts you might pick up on this) is that the Kamon I know and love trains intensive drills. I have listed the classes where this is done. I cannot speak for all the classes in Kamon as I cannot train everywhere!! So it would be unfair for me to say what some classes do if I have not been there!!

ALL Kamon classes should be training sparring and pad drills, and my point was that I didn't believe Grixti could be training at Kamon if he had not experienced this. I have asked Grixti numerous times which classes he trains at, and he has not answered either on her or by PM.

And I have never said that Kamon was the only ones gettng it right. All wing chun schools train differently. Some light, some hard. Kamon incorperates both the soft and the hard.

[Ghost]

Which part dude?
The 'learn the art then train' comment?
In Kamon for example, you learn structures, shapes, body mechanics, energy, etc. Then we spar using good technique. In my experience, if you throw two people together to spar who haven't learnt good techniques, sparring is a mess.

Sparring, for me, should be about applying the techniques you HAVE LEARNT, and not to teach someone how to do a technique

What is the point of hittig a pad if you are hitting it incorrectly?

That is why I like an art that has both the namby pamby stuff (forms, drills etc) and the harder, more intensive stuff (sparring, padwork, conditioning etc)

Why cant you learn technique on a pad?

If anything you can do it better because you get to do it at different angles, with footwork or simply with a static padman. I cant see how learning a strike on a pad can be negative.

However, i was asking about the sparring, how is hard sparring not that relevant for the street, you said it wasnt ideal, though you did say it had relevance you said it was "okay"
how is it just ok? whats wrong with it in terms of preparing for a street fight or any fight?

[Ghost]

My point (and if you reread my posts you might pick up on this) is that the Kamon I know and love trains intensive drills. I have listed the classes where this is done. I cannot speak for all the classes in Kamon as I cannot train everywhere!! So it would be unfair for me to say what some classes do if I have not been there!!

ALL Kamon classes should be training sparring and pad drills, and my point was that I didn't believe Grixti could be training at Kamon if he had not experienced this. I have asked Grixti numerous times which classes he trains at, and he has not answered either on her or by PM.

And I have never said that Kamon was the only ones gettng it right. All wing chun schools train differently. Some light, some hard. Kamon incorperates both the soft and the hard.

The guy says hes trained with you though.

Grixti is needed, back in lad, tell us what its like.

[Red Rum]

Why cant you learn technique on a pad?

If anything you can do it better because you get to do it at different angles, with footwork or simply with a static padman. I cant see how learning a strike on a pad can be negative.

However, i was asking about the sparring, how is hard sparring not that relevant for the street, you said it wasnt ideal, though you did say it had relevance you said it was "okay"
how is it just ok? whats wrong with it in terms of preparing for a street fight or any fight?

Oh I see...
What I meant was that the sparring we play with (and that I do at other martial arts), you are encouraged to keep your distance at range. The danger of this is that the avergae joe knows how to hit from these kind of ranges

If you shut the distance you take away your opponents leverage

Therefore hard sparring at range is not relevant for street confrontations.
(The last time you had a fight or argument, were you in kicking range of that person?)

[Ghost]

Oh I see...
What I meant was that the sparring we play with (and that I do at other martial arts), you are encouraged to keep your distance at range. The danger of this is that the avergae joe knows how to hit from these kind of ranges

If you shut the distance you take away your opponents leverage

Therefore hard sparring at range is not relevant for street confrontations.
(The last time you had a fight or argument, were you in kicking range of that person?)

Even in Muay Thai, the specialized close range art. Thats where MT excels is in close range standing. Id say something close to 80% of the technique is in close range.

What gym did you go to where they didnt let you spar hard close?

In fact, ive never been to a boxing gym that didnt allow you to spar close either. Have you actually trained at gyms or just with people from them?

[Red Rum]

Mike Brewer -'Why the hell would you spar in ways that are not relevant? I just don't get a lot of what you're saying. I have never been anything but an advocate of making sparring model reality. If reality happens at close range, then you can bet your ass close range is what you'll be "encouraged" to work. If the opponent is no good at it, he has precisely two choices: Get better or lose. Are you saying that when you go to these other schools (and by your own words "destroy" and "decimate" those martial artists of other styles) you willingly throw your own system out the window and just do what they "encourage" you to do? '


Yes. I spar in the way that that particular system asks me too.
For example, I have just started karate. It would be easy to outbox them or come in with close quarter techniques, but they train in a certain way and I respect that

Yet they hit hard and do the ‘heavy sparring’ that Grixti is looking for. Doesn’t mean it works or is relevant.

The MT gym I went to did not want me to spar up close and kept breaking us up. The same happened in boxing. I have trained MT for a while and I know that they are devastating close range. Yet a lot of their sparring work comes at distance.

[Ghost]

Mike Brewer -'Why the hell would you spar in ways that are not relevant? I just don't get a lot of what you're saying. I have never been anything but an advocate of making sparring model reality. If reality happens at close range, then you can bet your ass close range is what you'll be "encouraged" to work. If the opponent is no good at it, he has precisely two choices: Get better or lose. Are you saying that when you go to these other schools (and by your own words "destroy" and "decimate" those martial artists of other styles) you willingly throw your own system out the window and just do what they "encourage" you to do? '


Yes. I spar in the way that that particular system asks me too.
For example, I have just started karate. It would be easy to outbox them or come in with close quarter techniques, but they train in a certain way and I respect that

Yet they hit hard and do the ‘heavy sparring’ that Grixti is looking for. Doesn’t mean it works or is relevant.

The MT gym I went to did not want me to spar up close and kept breaking us up. The same happened in boxing. I have trained MT for a while and I know that they are devastating close range. Yet a lot of their sparring work comes at distance.

Bizarre, change gym.