The dangers of The Dragon List Forum and Martial arts Forums in general.

[TigerClaw]

Amazing. You deny the allegation of using aphorisms, by using an aphorism. Aphorisms in themselves are not a bad thing, but in your hands they become rather pungent.

No, I deny using "regurgitated fortune cookies". You have to read things very careful. In these battles between myself and some of the mean spirited mockers and liars, all things must be examined closely. I am careful what i say and what I do not say. if I make a mistake I admit it. But I try very hard not to lie.

In my hands they are used rightly. but to those who don't know how to use them they are like a man who leans on a crutch and then the slivers from the crutch shoot up into his hands.

Ahem...let's be honest, you've gone to another forum and started bad mouthing these people. Are you surprised they've followed you?

Ahem....lets be honest, I never bad mouth any. My words are not the rude profanity that we see from some of these men who have bad mouthed me first and from the beginning. I did not START badmouthing any. They STARTED it. I merely posted ideas and comments, and all the pride swelled. I merely rebuke the ones who lie and mock and are mean spirited. I am fully aware that the pride of men when rebuked swells over when they have another man dare to tell them they are wrong. But they are wrong so much. I don't care if there are 10 of them or 100 of them. I am not afraid to tell the truth even if the men who hear it hate me.

You couldn't be further from the truth.

What you failed to realise, and continue to do so, is that none of us have a chip on our shoulder about MMA vs. TMA. Your misapprehension stems from a failure to understand what MMA is. MMA is not a style, it is a method.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder. Actually by the things I posted and the very clear techniques I showed I may have helped save the lives of some who may find themselves in survival combat situations. If men or women try to just follow the sport rules of MMA they are in danger on the streets in my opinion, and tin the opinion of the experts as I quoted.

The real crux of TMA vs MMA is really a question of 'forms practice' vs 'full contact sparring'. If you had to do only one of those, the latter would hurt more, but create a better fighter (though technically not as crisp as someone who'd learnt loads of form). However, there is NO REASON why a good martial artist can't do both. This is why Kyokushinkai is one of the most respected traditional Japanese styles.

Wrong again, and again, man, you missunderstand so much. In the schools that i trained at and in may other Kung Fu schools around the world they do fight full contact. In one school we even fought on the ground and grappling. Many people have not sen real Kung Fu in combat.

The irony is that one of your initial points against MMA was that a system developed in such a short time would not be as rich as a traditional system developed over hundreds of years. Yet then you talked about creating a unique form from observing a mantis in your garden, a prime example of the sort of mystical yoda-esque nonsense you spouted that made everyone dislike you so much. Perhaps you did do exactly that, perhaps it was an excellent style - but unfortunately we have no proof and have to take your rather tall story with a pinch of salt I'm afraid. You don't seem to be able to grasp that basic fact. Only a fool believes everything a stranger tells him.

What? it is true that Kung Fu has a long history of actual combat fighting and development, as opposed to the short sport fighting style of MMA,. And as far as creating a mantis style and then learning real mantis. I did not use the newly created style as an example the centuries of development and combat tradition I was speaking about. This is part of your problem, you mix up your reasoning and try to connect things that don't connect.

KFM/TC, we have had the same debate that you started on the DList many, many, many times, gone over all the points you referred to in the past. I invited you to check the archives so that you could understand - but you appear to have ignored that and ploughed on regardless. As you can see, I've been reasonable in this post, I'm not attacking you - I'm just speaking the truth (as I see it).

I don't think so, not quite the way I have presented it and showed examples etc.

The simple fact was that people disliked your patronising and quasi-mystical tone - nothing more.

Well, thats too bad, my life has a deeply spiritual side to it. This is just who I am. I speak to those who have ears to hear. The rest will not understand and or attack. Some hate anything that is mystical at al. I on the other hand love mystical things. I am not trying to present myself as better or in a proud dominating position over others. It is just that when any man gets corrected or called to the carpet for lying, they will often run or ban, or attack the person who exposes them. Just watch, if I am still able, I will expose some here later.

Put it this way I am not concerned if I am hated. Some of the men who have changed things in the past were hated by many and later understood. I follow my master in this.

[TigerClaw]

Just checkin' out the action over here......lol. I see kungfuman is spewing at the mouth here as well.

No, I am speaking truth and exposing the mean spirited attackers and rude people.

[TigerClaw]

and the fact he is ripping people off by training them in dangerous techniques

that only hold true in KFM/TC's head

I do teach dangerous techniques, But dangerous to the attacker who tries to hurt my students. The real danger would be to say to a new woman student that they will not be able to defend against a larger professional grappler, ever, so they might as well just die.

I teach them fast and effective escapes for such a situation. I have the backing of other experts agreing with my dangerous techniques. But it looks like you have no backing for your lack of survival combat grappling.

You should just go back and hide in the Dragons list and stop stiring up falsehoods.

Did you guys miss me soo much that you got out of that horrible forum called the dragons List, and away from some of the unjust people in there?

[TigerClaw]

of course the real danger of internet forums is the dissemination of information by idiots

So you better stop speaking

[jubaji]

I do teach dangerous techniques

I'm sure everything you teach is a grave danger to your students (if they actually exist).

[JadeDragon]

Put it this way I am not concerned if I am hated. Some of the men who have changed things in the past were hated by many and later understood. I follow my master in this.

So who is your master? As far as I know you have yet to tell us anything about who you studied under, your lineage, etc...

[TigerClaw]

UFC changed everything. All of a sudden, we could see what worked and what didn't work. We could see it with our own eyes, no mysticism, no Bullshido. And Traditional martial arts did not fare well. Much to my own dismay, as I have always enjoyed TMA.
It's not the art, it's the training method.

Wrong, you never saw real Kung Fu, or at least the Kung Fu that has been around for centuries. You may have saw a few men who were kick boxers, or who may have had some so called kung fu background and yet when it came to fighting they seem to throw all of their forms and teaching away and become kick boxers. (Not that kick boxing is not a viable fighting method). But real kung Fu I doubt has ever been sen on MMA or Ultimate fighter. have you ever seen any man ever, ian all the Ultimate fighter sport shows that has ever taken a low unicorn stance and taken a very traditional hand guard, like, lets say a snake style guard, or a tiger pose? I have never sen this. And yet in the forms of Kung Fu these type of motions are all through them. I think what happens today is that many do not train long and hard in forms and two man forms and seek diligently to apply the fighting principles to combat. Because we are in a fast paced world where everything is a quick fix, the form fighting suffers. Also many Kung Fu masters would not even enter such arenas, because they teach self defense, not vain glory proud boasting for a little gold belt. And as i have said, Kung Fu fighters would deal differently at times with grapplers than a sport fighter would. The techniques would not be allowed in sport fighting. Imagine a MMA fighter attacks a master of the Praying mantis style and immediatley the mantis master blocks and grabs his hand and kicks him in the groin. Then the reff blows the whistle and the fight is stopped. Or a snake fighter takes a low unicorn stance and his guard is poised in a snake position, the MMA fighter rushes at him and the snake fighter deflects all his blows and suddenly spears his snake fist into his eyes, and again the reff blows the whistle and the fight is stopped. All this takes about 4 or 5 seconds.

I have had people attack me and rush in, and this is how it ended. Though I pulled my strikes and struck them hard.just above their brow. And I pulled the kick to the groin and struck them to the side of the groin.

An analogy would be learning to surf. If all you mostly do is stand on the board on the sand, and mimic the moves you will be doing on the real wave, then once you hit the water you will be in for a shock. Nature is chaotic, and it's difficult to plan anything. You take for granted that if you do A., then B will happen, and many TKD black belts found out that this was not the case when encountering a street fighter with no training but much experience getting hit and throwing punches in real life.

You seem to misunderstand that Kung Fu has a long history of actual combat and war fighting. It has been tested in the waves, for a long time. It has so much to offer that I marvel how men can ignore it or not see the value. Oh well, their loss.

KUng Fu Man, I do Aikido and TKD. I do it because I enjoy it, and they are beautiful arts. I take the "DO" part of it very seriously. But I am not naive to think that any of it is generally useful in a real fight. Perhaps, but not likely, and at least not until someone has been doing it 20 years and is still in top physical shape.

Well then you have not been taught right, if you think it is not really useful. I am not talking about an art I am not familiar with, I teach kung Fu and I have learned and adapted many things from what I have learned. I have also learned how to fight on the ground as well.

With MMA, a person is experiencing resistance and real sparring, and they get good very quickly.

Remember you are talking about a SPORT fighting with many, many rules. I am talking about survival combat for life and death. Even the military seems to understand what I say and other experts. But you still do not. Read again the quotes from some of the experts about ground fighting grappling etc.

Plus let's not forget that all the MMA styles are actually based on TMA. However, they have evolved, economized. They threw out the bullshido element, and focused on what actually works.

I don't agree, Kung Fu is not the basis for many of the MMA, it is more wrestling, kick boxing , jujitsu and some Tai boxing etc. If they claim to have Kung Fu in the mix, then they , like many other kick boxers who gave up on forms and stance training just get rid of most of their style.

Yes, there are a lot of MMA people on this forum. So what? I happen to agree with most of them.

Well, I can agree with them about many techniques they may have and I can learn from them also. But as far as MMA being a sport fighting with rules and Kung Fu being taught as survival combat readiness, if they do not agree in this, then I disagree with them.

Your problem is you came here and made a provocative post about the superiority of Kung Fu over MMA. What did you think the response would be? And, you did it in a very preachy tone. What did you think the response would be?

I did not say Kung Fu was better as far as I remember. I simply made a comparrison between sport fighting and the claims to Ultimate fighting, and reality based combat survival fighting of Kung Fu. Each has their own sphere.

Are you trying to say that in a combat fight for your survival you are playing by some rules, like no eye attacks, no groin attacks, or throat attacks etc?

I like and prefer TMA, but I also practice the basics of BJJ and MT. And you should too.

Who said I don't. I admire many things in Jujitsu and ninjitsu as well as other grappling arts. But I always want to adapt them for more combat readiness in the real world. Some techniques from Ninjitsu have very strong conbat fighting techniques. But these would not be allowed in MMA sport fighting arenas.

So as you can see every one of your points was misguided and you should have considered things a bit more clearly before you posted against me. I have no reason to fight with you, so far we have ben able to discuss things. I hope we still can. Don't be swayed by the intent of other evil men against me.

if you are, it is a shame.

And don't be afraid to stand against the tide of many attackers.

by the way Kung Fu teaches how to fight against multiple attackers.

[TigerClaw]

So who is your master? As far as I know you have yet to tell us anything about who you studied under, your lineage, etc...

I did say the names of a few of my teachers on the DL. Go back and check. I do not want to name others in here. I mentioned the schools names and the styles etc.

[TigerClaw]

No, what you showed is crappy escapes from grappling situations that would never work if done full speed and on the streets in real fight situations.

Wrong, very wrong. They are not crappy, you most likely have never even thought of or seen such things.

I challenge you to have a man grapple you and immediately attack his groin or face and watch how fast his initial attack is diverted and he coils into a ball. if you think they are so crappy , then go and try them and prove me wrong. The only weakness in the pictures was my sons angles. But most attacker are not pros anyway. Though these would work against any man. especially if they leave as many openings as many MMA fighters do in real combat.

I do not look at another teachers techniques and say such things to them, I don't look at a Monk doing techniques on a site and then say , they are crappy. I would ask questions and talk about areas of concern and interest. But to talk that way to another Kung Fu teacher is disrepectful. If I watched you teacher i am sure I would see some techniques that are stronger than others. And things that might not work for me. But I would never say , They are crappy and don't work".

I am sad that you have changed your tone from a respectful Kung Fu friend to a mocker. I am sad that you seem to have ben swayed by majority and other mean spirited people..

[jubaji]

I challenge you to have a man grapple you and immediately attack his groin or face and watch how fast his initial attack is diverted and he coils into a ball. ..

Ok, since you are making claims, let's see you doing just that against a grappler of the caliber of those in the vids I so kindly provided in that other thread back on the DL. Let's see it or let's see you shut the **** up once and for all.

[sunwukung]

Wrong, very wrong. They are not crappy, you most likely have never even thought of or seen such things.

What, that a smack in the knackers was a good way of distracting someone? I never thought of that, what an innovative strategy.

I challenge you to have a man grapple you and immediately attack his groin or face and watch how fast his initial attack is diverted and he coils into a ball.

No, I challenge you to do the same to a trained MMA fighter (or any trained martial artist). That's the whole point KFM - the burden of proof is on you, because this is your claim to prove. When YOU can produce these movies, then the matter will be settled.

But most attacker are not pros anyway.

And if they were? Are you saying that your KF is only good against people that can't fight? Hmm.....

But I would never say , They are crappy and don't work".

But you have said exactly that, about MMA - you walked into a forum in which you knew no-one and started making comments which were disrespectful, even though you are ignorant of that fact. You may not have meant disrespect, but you have succeeded in giving and earning it.

Wrong, you never saw real Kung Fu, or at least the Kung Fu that has been around for centuries.

Which begs the question, why not? If this 'real Kung Fu' we haven't seen is so powerful, why is it not more widespread? Why hasn't someone issued a challenge match in MMA (not uncommon in traditional kung fu circles). What makes you think that what others learn is not 'Real Kung Fu'? Having respect for 'MMA'? As I've mentioned again(and again and again), MMA is simply a venue for testing your skills - not a style in itself.

[TigerClaw]

What, that a smack in the knackers was a good way of distracting someone? I never thought of that, what an innovative strategy.

No the techniques that I had before on Dragon List, specific escapes. Not just a smack to the groin.

No, I challenge you to do the same to a trained MMA fighter (or any trained martial artist). That's the whole point KFM - the burden of proof is on you, because this is your claim to prove. When YOU can produce these movies, then the matter will be settled.

First of all I care nothing at all about your challenges, and i am not the kind of martial artist that goes around picking fights. I have seen combat enough in the clubs I have trained. And combat in real life.

But your reasoning abilities are very weak here. you expose yourself and trap yourself here. You said,

"That's the whole point KFM - the burden of proof is on you, because this is your claim to prove. When YOU can produce these movies, then the matter will be settled."

If you are uncertain if they work then you cannot make any real decision on them yet. So any kind of attack on me from any here would be wrong, because they aren't sure.

And if they were? Are you saying that your KF is only good against people that can't fight? Hmm.....

I believe I also said it works great against pros also. But the truth of life is that most people can't fight and know nothing about it. The odds of meeting a skilled grappler in combat are high.

But you have said exactly that, about MMA - you walked into a forum in which you knew no-one and started making comments which were disrespectful, even though you are ignorant of that fact. You may not have meant disrespect, but you have succeeded in giving and earning it.

No, I did not. I often end up defending not attacking. I defend agaisnt the ones who spew out the garbage and attacks and lies against me.

By the way, no man deserves respect when they act as some have to me in there.

Which begs the question, why not? If this 'real Kung Fu' we haven't seen is so powerful, why is it not more widespread? Why hasn't someone issued a challenge match in MMA (not uncommon in traditional kung fu circles). What makes you think that what others learn is not 'Real Kung Fu'? Having respect for 'MMA'? As I've mentioned again(and again and again), MMA is simply a venue for testing your skills - not a style in itself.

By the way I never said I did not respect some fighters techniques in MMA. And I know real Kung Fu. I have yet to see any man take a Kung Fu stance or guard in MMA. If I have missed it show me.

And as far as why Kung Fu men don't get into these type of fights.I answered the possibility for this one in the DL. I am not getting into it all again here..

[TigerClaw]

Ok, since you are making claims, let's see you doing just that against a grappler of the caliber of those in the vids I so kindly provided in that other thread back on the DL. Let's see it or let's see you shut the **** up once and for all.

I am not a scrapper as you seem to be. I don't go around picking fights.

And until you see me do so, or not see me do so, you really have no right to say it does or doesn't work. Your whole attack is deflatted.

[sunwukung]

And as far as why Kung Fu men don't get into these type of fights.I answered the possibility for this one in the DL. I am not getting into it all again here..

So, why bother making this thread at all KFM? Why not just be content to go on with your life and leave the DList behind?

[clfsean]

Wrong, you never saw real Kung Fu, or at least the Kung Fu that has been around for centuries.

Neither have you unless you aged really well.

Also many Kung Fu masters would not even enter such arenas, because they teach self defense, not vain glory proud boasting for a little gold belt.

And where do you think Lei Tai originated?? Please... most of the old time (read Qing Dynasty/your "kung fu masters") CMA people learned for one reason. To fight...

Many of the current "kung fu masters" (you terms) train San Shou/San Da fighters with one thing in mind... winning in competition.

And as i have said, Kung Fu fighters would deal differently at times with grapplers than a sport fighter would. The techniques would not be allowed in sport fighting. Imagine a MMA fighter attacks a master of the Praying mantis style and immediatley the mantis master blocks and grabs his hand and kicks him in the groin. Then the reff blows the whistle and the fight is stopped. Or a snake fighter takes a low unicorn stance and his guard is poised in a snake position, the MMA fighter rushes at him and the snake fighter deflects all his blows and suddenly spears his snake fist into his eyes, and again the reff blows the whistle and the fight is stopped. All this takes about 4 or 5 seconds.

Yeah except not how you imagined above...

I have had people attack me and rush in, and this is how it ended. Though I pulled my strikes and struck them hard.just above their brow. And I pulled the kick to the groin and struck them to the side of the groin.

Video? Their fight record?

You seem to misunderstand that Kung Fu has a long history of actual combat and war fighting. It has been tested in the waves, for a long time. It has so much to offer that I marvel how men can ignore it or not see the value. Oh well, their loss.

No you misunderstand in that real combat doesn't vaguely resemble the Shaw Bros depictions you envision...

Hand to hand was a last resort in Chinese warfare, much like it currently is now. They didn't line up & toss insults back & forth about how their "X" style was far superior to the other guy's "Y" style.

Well then you have not been taught right, if you think it is not really useful. I am not talking about an art I am not familiar with, I teach kung Fu and I have learned and adapted many things from what I have learned. I have also learned how to fight on the ground as well.

Against whom? Your fight record?? Your arrest record? Court case record numbers where you've had to testify about defending yourself?

Remember you are talking about a SPORT fighting with many, many rules. I am talking about survival combat for life and death. Even the military seems to understand what I say and other experts. But you still do not. Read again the quotes from some of the experts about ground fighting grappling etc.

You really need to stop thinking of BB Mag as a Holy Grail...

I don't agree, Kung Fu is not the basis for many of the MMA, it is more wrestling, kick boxing , jujitsu and some Tai boxing etc.

CMA is one the original MMAs. But it is not, wrestling, kickboxing, jujutsu (or the Brazilian jiujitsu) or Thai Boxing. Those are thing unto themselves. CMA may have aspects or they may have aspects of CMA, but they are wholly separate.

If they claim to have Kung Fu in the mix, then they , like many other kick boxers who gave up on forms and stance training just get rid of most of their style.

No... think focused on a practical application of a traditional MA for today's arena.

Well, I can agree with them about many techniques they may have and I can learn from them also. But as far as MMA being a sport fighting with rules and Kung Fu being taught as survival combat readiness, if they do not agree in this, then I disagree with them.

Disagree all you want, I still put my money on the trained MMA fighter over you. I imagine most people would too...

I did not say Kung Fu was better as far as I remember. I simply made a comparrison between sport fighting and the claims to Ultimate fighting, and reality based combat survival fighting of Kung Fu. Each has their own sphere.

So since you claim you say this, quit trying to convince people otherwise about your otherworldly mad KF skills & how it is so far superior in combat to anything else.

Who said I don't. I admire many things in Jujitsu and ninjitsu as well as other grappling arts. But I always want to adapt them for more combat readiness in the real world. Some techniques from Ninjitsu have very strong conbat fighting techniques. But these would not be allowed in MMA sport fighting arenas.

Actually they would if you understood anything about taijutsu... again, you don't.

So as you can see every one of your points was misguided and you should have considered things a bit more clearly before you posted against me. I have no reason to fight with you, so far we have ben able to discuss things. I hope we still can. Don't be swayed by the intent of other evil men against me.

What evil men?

by the way Kung Fu teaches how to fight against multiple attackers.

Right and nothing else anywhere on the entire world & histories of men do... *oiy*