MMA sport fighting and Kung Fu combative.

[Ben Grimm]

LOL! HuSanYan, WC has more than just "patter cake" girly punches. But since you ,like TigerClaw have never tested anything, you'll never know.

[TigerClaw]

LOL! HuSanYan, WC has more than just "patter cake" girly punches. But since you ,like TigerClaw have never tested anything, you'll never know.

I have tested many things. You know very little about me.

By the way I still wait for you to post any video or clips of you doing any kung fu at all.

[Ben Grimm]

And I'm waiting for you to learn martial arts instead of LARPing.

[Uke]

No one here is perfect. The reason why you rub people the wrong way is that it shows you don't understand what you are talking about, try to build momentum with your opinion and throw more and more credibility out the window.

Good god if that isn't the truth about jubaji and the 10,000 post full of opinions he writes. I'm not even sure that you call them opinions as much as flippant comments. At least TigerClaw writes about martial arts regardless of whether you like what he writes. He takes the time and puts forth an effort.

The reason why you rub people the wrong way is that it shows you don't understand what you are talking about

How many of you have admitted to never having trained in weapons, self defense or combatives but frequently show up on the Urban Forum to spread your uninformed doubt and pass off your baseless opinions and try to build momentum off of that? We've got people who come to the boxing forum talking shit who don't even watch boxing or box.

At least TigerClaw claims to know about CMA and write posts about it. Some people claim to know about wrestling and then proceed to drone on about what works and doesn't work in everything else.

Hell ... If jubaji is fine to post here then TigerClaw should be a super moderator. What good for the goose .... etc.

[Ben Grimm]

That's going to far Uke. If TC was a Super Mod then the LARPing will never cease.

[Uke]

That's going to far Uke. If TC was a Super Mod then the LARPing will never cease.

Spend some time reading some past posts written here Ben ... and you'll see that TC is much more productive and contributes a hell of a lot more than some of the people here who only write one liners and makes "comments" but never respond to the subject matter.

I don't know what you mean by LARping, but if its anything like the incessant bickering that goes on here because one person in particular(jubaji) is miserable when other people have good discussion and aren't paying attention to him then TC is hardly the source of the problem.

If you read what TC writes, none of us may agree with him, but at least TC writes about the art he's interested in. He could be completely wrong but he isn't rude, obnoxious or pathetically desperate for attention to the point that he needs to start a flame war that ends a discussion that many people were civilly participating in with little to no tension.

[Ben Grimm]

I'll agree there. He is completely wrong, but yeah, at least he's polite in general. Other than that. Well there's too much LARPing from his end. LARPing means Live Action Rol Playing. LARPer means Live Action Role Player.

[TigerClaw]

I'll agree there. He is completely wrong, but yeah, at least he's polite in general. Other than that. Well there's too much LARPing from his end. LARPing means Live Action Rol Playing. LARPer means Live Action Role Player.

What do you mean completely wrong? I posted my teachers names in sites, the schools, and in this thread I showed clips form Choy Li Fut that take standing techniques and apply them to the ground. This proves that what I was saying about using standing techniques on the ground is very true. There are many kung fu techniques that can be used on the ground that are also used standing up. It is like using another stance instead of a standing stance. Besides this there are many other ground fighting techniques. I posted as well a JKD fighter who seems to have Wing Chun as well and how he uses ground fighting etc. I have always sought to expound on what I say. I could post many video clips of techniques ground fighting forms etc etc etc. But what's the point, you and a few others would just attack them no matter what I showed. Even if I showed a complete traditional Kung Fu forms, and strong applications to forms. You would attack it . Even if I showed the most complete very detailed techniques, with strong stances and precision hand speed etc. You would attack it. It doesn't matter what I post, or how good and traditional it is, you would attack it. This is because of the kind of person you are. And thats to bad.

But I think the point of this thread, to show that Kung fu as a survival combat fighting system is different than MMA sport fighting with rules, has been achieved. As well as proving that Kung Fu does have grappling and ground fighting in it.

[sunwukung]

I could post many video clips of techniques ground fighting forms etc etc etc. But what's the point, you and a few others would just attack them no matter what I showed. Even if I showed a complete traditional Kung Fu forms, and strong applications to forms. You would attack it . Even if I showed the most complete very detailed techniques, with strong stances and precision hand speed etc. You would attack it.

People deride you simply because you keep posting examples against compliant opponents - either in a static photo, a drill with your son, a kung fu movie or a (frankly sad) post-mortem of an MMA video.
Since you're so completely stubborn and evasive in this regard, I'll do it for you - let's discuss these videos of full contact KF (sport) fighting, and their merits compared to MMA.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aBEoslpEN1o&feature=related

This clip has a really interesting take down at 0.14 - and overall looks fairly formidable.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4&feature=related

I think this next vid is quite funny at around 0:30 - because the guy on the left clearly gets clocked and then starts up on his QiGong routine...and yet wins the bout!!!?? The second fight is a lot better mind you...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfLbV6vAec&feature=related

This is a 'lei tai' clip from closer to home..

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Aue6bIplPwI

As far as I can tell, NONE of the above are that far removed from MMA in terms of how scrappy, formless and messy the fights inevitably become - in many cases they're worse. I think this rather demonstrates the point that your chat about "form-fighting" is really a load of old guff.

Fighting is messy business, if it's KF or MMA (or boxing or karate...), and the most important things you learn about fighting are when you're kicked/punched/thrown or grappled out of your comfort zone, when your form is broken, not when you're sitting on your ass giving a (frankly pathetic) post-mortem of two fighters. And I didn't see much in the way of 'moral fibre' in those bouts - if you're kicking someone in the head, good manners are a moot point aren't they?

KF is a good system (or has the potential to be), but only as good as the training method. If you never test your techniques when your form breaks - then you will find it hard to know what works and what is just a load of hypothetical rubbish that, while theoretically correct, just wouldn't work against a 200lb gorilla. KF can be trained in the same way as MMA. This is your mistake TC, you see them as opposites, but MMA is not a style like Muay Thai or Jujitsu, it is a training philosophy.

Personally, I respect MMA for it's training method, and the results they get are derived from hard work and bravery in the ring. I'm not a tough guy, I train as hard as I can in the time I have, and that's enough for me - but the little I've learnt has taught me one thing: KNOW YOUR LIMITS.

Talking a lot of sh*t about flower blossoms and insects in your garden will just guarantee you a short trip to the dentist.

and just for fun, this clip reminded me of you...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ71wMPeYQ

[TigerClaw]

So? Anyone can post the names of teachers.

Are you really this stupid?

Show us who YOU are, not who your teachers are. And I am asking you to do this because you are claiming you are a teacher. Prove it or STFU!!!!

I don't have to prove that I am a teacher for many years to you. I don't care if you believe me or not. Just don't lie about it. I have been teaching for many years now and I teach at two locations. I posted pictures of some of my students with me in another forum, only to have more attacks and denials. So what's the point?

I have shows some video clips of my movement in here and some pics but thats not enough for men like you. If you had your way you would ask me to go into a MMA club , video tape it and pick fights with the top fighters and try to use deadly technique against them and then post it on You Tube so I can please your little fantasies? To do such a thing would totally against my principles and will never happen.

My students really enjoy what I teach them, and I teach them things that work in combat and many traditional Kung Fu forms ,weapons and two man forms, self defense ground fighting, grappling escapes etc. etc. Why would I come into a forum and lie about being a teacher of Kung Fu? What purpose would that bring? I did not come in to this forum to talk about me being a teacher, but rather to discuss techniques and ideas and hopefully encourage others to do the same and perhaps even to set up a pic or video thread where we can share our techniques and defenses against different attacks etc. I still hope this is possible. But some only seem to come in here to attack others and try to tear people down and flat out lie , lie, lie and then lie some more. I get frustrated at these liars around, you are one of them when you lie about me, Ben Grimm is another and so is the jubagi.

[jubaji]

If you had your way you would ask me to go into a MMA club , video tape it and pick fights with the top fighters and try to use deadly technique against them and then post it on You Tube so I can please your little fantasies? To do such a thing would totally against my principles and will never happen.

The principle that you don't want to get your silly LARPer ass broke? Good idea.

[TigerClaw]

...As far as I can tell, NONE of the above are that far removed from MMA in terms of how scrappy, formless and messy the fights inevitably become - in many cases they're worse. I think this rather demonstrates the point that your chat about "form-fighting" is really a load of old guff.

That is not what I am talking about. They are again in a sport fighting and the reff actually stops the combative aspects from happening. Also they seemed more like your standard kick boxers, most of them, with no focus on form and stances etc. Though some of the moves were not too bad and you can see the techniques involved.

But in combat there is no gloves, no ref to stop the combative techniques, no whistle blowing, no ring to get pushed out of, no head gear etc. When I speak of form fighting it is very different from these.

Fighting is messy business, if it's KF or MMA (or boxing or karate...), and the most important things you learn about fighting are when you're kicked/punched/thrown or grappled out of your comfort zone, when your form is broken,

If a person does not perfect their fighting style they will have great troubles moving in stances and form and with any technique. It is only messy if the fighter has not perfected his technique. I agree that the attacker who may not have much fighting skill will be messy. But that does not mean you will be.

KF is a good system (or has the potential to be), but only as good as the training method

Kung Fu is only as good as the man in it, if he trains hard and works to master his technique. Until then there will be alot of mess and sloppy fighting and broken form and technique.

If you never test your techniques when your form breaks - then you will find it hard to know what works and what is just a load of hypothetical rubbish that, while theoretically correct, just wouldn't work against a 200lb gorilla.

I have tested my Kung Fu when form is weak. I cannot say my form breaks, although in the beginning it would. But now it is more tested and pressed to breaking point. As far as 200 lb gorilla, I have had a 350 pound or so man attack me once and in form I countered and threw him to the ground and I did this in a standing position, then I overcame his guard and captured his face with a tiger claw, he gave up.

KF can be trained in the same way as MMA. This is your mistake TC, you see them as opposites, but MMA is not a style like Muay Thai or Jujitsu, it is a training philosophy.

I truely believe that in the West at least, many people have not really trained kung fu the way it was intended. A modern boxing, kick boxing, loose Bruce Lee style fighting has dominated the scene for many years.

Like I have said, the fights I have had I have used form and technique in and it worked with almost textbook precision. I admit however that there are times, If I am not focused or if I am tired etc, that my form has been sloppier than other times.

[TigerClaw]

The principle that you don't want to get your silly LARPer ass broke? Good idea.

Wrong, it is a moral principle I live by. I am not afraid of other fighters, it is not a physical thing with me.

[jubaji]

It's a chickenshit LARPer principle and probably the only reason you are still here to annoy people to this day.

[sunwukung]

But in combat there is no gloves, no ref to stop the combative techniques, no whistle blowing, no ring to get pushed out of, no head gear etc. When I speak of form fighting it is very different from these.

It's not uncommon for an MMA bout to culminate in a KO or a submission. Surely even within the remit of sport MMA there are KF practitioners that could achieve either of these end results using the thousands of techniques you referred to earlier?

If a person does not perfect their fighting style they will have great troubles moving in stances and form and with any technique.

I searched a lot of different pages for the videos I posted a link to, from old clips of traditional KF lei tai fights to more modern tournaments. In none of them do the practitioners manage to move in form for any real length of time. Perhaps that's bad luck that no such fight has ever been caught on tape, but as it stands I'm inclined to believe that this level of perfection is only possible when practising form alone or in a pre-rehearsed drill. It's this disconnection between theory and practice that (in part) leads to the incredulous cries from the gallery when you impart your anecdotes of kung fu perfection.

Two of the clips are of traditional kung fu styles from mainland China, and I assume by two practitioners that have the respect of their schools in order to be put forward for the bout. Yet they were scrappy, messy affairs. There are many more "traditional" bouts that demonstrate this point. Is there any reason why none of the clips show this 'precision' kung fu you talk about?

Like I have said, the fights I have had I have used form and technique in and it worked with almost textbook precision.

As interesting as these anecdotes are, they're not really adding much to the debate without video evidence that they went as cleanly as you believe.