MMA sport fighting and Kung Fu combative.

[Tom Yum]

Can you try to go through some of the things i posted earlier and show me the clips you were talking about where clawing and groin and eye attacks were used?

You've got some interesting points, but alot of them show that you've never actually stepped onto the mat against an experienced grappler.

For instance, you state that "if a grappler shot in for a single or double leg takedown, they would be met with claws to the eyes, strikes to the neck and vertebrae."

When are these counter-strikes going to take place? When you're off balance and have no base to launch a powerful strike, in the air or while the grappler is placing you head first onto the mat (or concrete)?

A 'good' high-school level freestyle wrestler isn't going to just come at you with his head out and exposed waiting for these strikes as is practiced in demonstrations; he's going to set up that shot pretend like he's going to tie up with you up top, get you to try to strike and then shoot low, deep and explosively - if you've never grappled before and can't counter, he will have you on the ground faster than you say qi gong.

How do I know this?

I've grappled against 'good' level highschool wrestlers - PM'd jubaji about this 2-3 years ago when I was working on my grappling game. The highschool wrestlers whom were ranked were too damned strong and technical to handle without my reverting to jiujitsu - they were beasts! I'm talking about kids who do high-rep bench presses with 225lb and run sub 6:00 miles...(wtf are they feeding them?)

Your first response to a shot attempt?

Sprawl.

If he still gets a hold of your leg, you can throw the full force of your weight on him and land on his back with his hands tied up around your leg with your free leg sprawled out - THAT would be the best time to land your neck strikes, grab hair, palm his ears, elbow back of head, knee to get him to let go and back on your feet

The first full-contact traditional fighter to use this: Keith Hackney (kenpo) vs. Royce Gracie. He sprawled Gracie's shots, used his size advantage to stay on top and strike - causing Gracie to release his grip and fight standing up and in HIS preferred range. Gracie eventually got him on the ground again and tapped him, but for a traditional martial artists who'd never trained in grappling, he lasted long enough.

OR use a standard free-style response - clasp his thigh and turn him over for a point so you can attempt a pin (or face pound/submission if MMA rules).

You've got to be aware of where your legs are - if he has one leg and is able to get it closer to your others, get ready to get scooped...

If he spears you, you won't even know what hit you until your on the ground.

If the guy you're facing is an experienced NCAA wrestler and gets your leg, you better hope that he doesn't know jiujitsu or subs because you'll get tossed around and tied up quick.

The skill-level difference between a competitive NCAA and 'good' highschool freestyler is like comparing a competitive Golden Gloves boxer to a 'good' amateur tough man - if your grappling/striking regime falls apart against a good amateur then its time to think about how you are training (but not necessarily that the style is bad).

If you've never used your gongfu grappling (or wrestling/boxing) against these different levels, you're basing everything off of text book/theory/class demonstrations and will be in for a suprise if you ever have to do it.

*Wrestling/boxing/muaythai/full-contact karate etc give you a great platform for testing how you handle real pressure and aggression without having to bite, claw, scratch, spear hand etc. granted they aren't real fights since you can't employ gong fu strikes, use improvised weapons etc. but they teach you how to better employ them against someone who brings skill and strength to the game.

[TigerClaw]

You've got some interesting points, but ...you state that "if a grappler shot in for a single or double leg takedown, they would be met with claws to the eyes, strikes to the neck and vertebrae."

How this is done is the whole issue. Often the key to avoiding the shoot or other lower gate attacks is learning how to read the opponent and to watch how he telegraphs his position. When you know what he is going to do and when it helps to be ready for a counter or defense. For example, if the attacker steps in with his left fott and shifts his body slightly foreward he is getting ready for a attack. If you are able to read him, when he begins to shoot in that is when the reaction takes place, or better yet just before he commits to the action. there are many technique that can be used to defend against this kind of attack, if your arms are low you can lock him up and twist him off balance, if he does manage to get under your arms and shoots in, it is at just that moment when timing is key, you have to shift your stance to a stable stance, and support with the rear leg. Lets assume he has his head on your left side, then you take your left hand and shoot it down fast just as he comes into touch your side, your hand forms a claw position and locks onto his chin or hooks into the eyelid or inner lip and the right hand is used as a brace to support then suddenly a quick torque is don upward with the left hand . (be careful here this can seriously injure the opponent. )The his whole head shifts upward and around deflecting the force of his attack. And allowing you to regain the stable position and attack with further strikes of claws etc . Wrapping around the right claw to his throat and dragging him to the ground here works good. The good thing about this technique is, that even if he manages to shift you off balance and take you to the ground you can still perform this technique in part.Only you will have to sprawl over after you twist the head. To see this done in reality looks a bit viscious and hurtful. But we are talking about survival combat again.

I can tell you that any man that is going to come close quarter with a Kung Fu fighter has got to be ready to have such techniques done to him. Most fighters that I have seen are not ready for such a defense. If a man was ready for this why would he shoot his head right beside the opponents arm.

In many, many MMA fights we se that when a shoot is doen the defender wraps his arm around the neck of the attacker and on the ground he pulls up on his neck. The technique I am refering to is different but similar in principle. Instead of wrapping the arm around the neck and choking, the arm comes up higher and locks onto the jaw or into the soft tissue , like a fish hook into the eye lids or lip. I have had a man wrap his arm tight around my necks in a headlock position and all I had to do was shoot my right hand around behind his head and around to his inside lip and torque back, he quickly changed position and twisted to the right and over. His whole body followed the torque. As he does that I can attack the groin as well with the left hand.

As far as claws to the eyes when he comes infor a shoot or attack. This is done by a technique that uses one hand to take down the guard and the other hand to attck. This technique can only be done if the attacker has one of his hands slightly foreward . Lets assume he has his left hand foreward and is angled to the left stance. i am in a left leading stance also, then my left hand can quickly seize or trap his left hand and tug at a angle to the left slightly this allows the opening to the ribs or face or eyes. Or i shoot my right hand at the same time around behind his head and if he has hair grab the hair and pull back, or if no hair, shoot over top andclaw the face and eyes, or shoot around behind, as I press quickly into a close quarter position and using the right hand fish hook around behind him and lock his inner lip or eye lids and torque back and around. This technique is so fast that the opponents hand does not have time to react. if you don't believe this have someone take a piece of paper hold it up between your hand with your fingers opened and tell them to drop the paper at any tie they want and try to close your fingers and catch the paper. You will find that the paper falls between your fingers and you do not catch it. This is because the brian signals are not fast enough to the hand, after you have sen the person let go, the signal goes to the brain and sends it back to the hand, and that is too slow. In Kung Fu we try to work on techniques and speed and sensitivity to change that outcome. But this technique would work very well in MMA fights.

whenever I have new students I teach them this principle. I also tell then to take a guard and try to escape me attacking them. they cannot. This principle is what I use. It is similar to this principle in Praying mantis,

YouTube - 7 Star Mantis Kung Fu: Trapping and Seizing Part 1 of 2

A 'good' high-school level freestyle wrestler isn't going to just come at you with his head out and exposed waiting for these strikes as is practiced in demonstrations; he's going to set up that shot pretend like he's going to tie up with you up top, get you to try to strike and then shoot low, deep and explosively - if you've never grappled before and can't counter, he will have you on the ground faster than you say qi gong.

As soon as the opponent tries to attack, that is the issue, in Kung Fu we need to read his telegraphing and deal with him as he approaches. This is where a alot of study and practice is needed. This is a whole skill on its own. And if my set up guard are good he will not know where I am going to hit or how I am going to deflect or be able to break my guard. Also stances are very important when a person rushes in to shoot or close the distance. And if the wrestler tries to get me to strike, that is the point where he fails. I will not strike that easy. Usually when I strike I fake or shift attention to another place or take the guard down first. I rarely just strike in with a punch or other strikes.

Your first response to a shot attempt?
Sprawl.

This will work to some degree, but you will get very close and in a grapple position. If you are trying to avoid this, the first response might be a stance shift and rearrangement of my footwork to adjust to his foootwork. if he approaches with off balanced footwork, or if i can cause his footwork to be unstable, I can counter with a proper stance movement and redirection of his force. Also, my hands need to be very quick and tricky. He can not know where I am going to put them. But as soon as he touchs me or grapples me, I have to train and know where he is exposing vital areas. And the many hand techniques in Kung Fu with Chuin na and other techniques come in handy for such counters.

This is a principle I teach,

"As soon as a person strikes you they open up certain areas of weakness. The same is said for grappling. As soon as the grapple you they open up certain areas of weakness." this is where training, practice, technique all come in. Along with speed, stances and power. You must know where the weakness is in accordance with his body position and know how to attack those areas to quickly escape. There is no time for playing around or rolling on the ground hoping that you can lock his arms or jump behind him and get him in a rear naked choke etc. Although these are good techniques and they can be used in certain situations. I am talking about survival, combat, life and death, and against a experienced grappler, or somewhat experienced..

I can only give an example from nature here again. Imagine grappling a tiger. What will the tiger do? Unless you are able to lock both of his claws and his mouth and back claws, you are in trouble.

If I grapple a person, lets say I do shoot and grab around his waist. Both of my hands are occupied in trying to take him to the ground. That leaves my face groin, neck, back of the neck, spine, joints etc exposed. If I am on top of him, as we see in many MMA fights we see that the closeness of the fighter leaves him vulnerable in certain areas. If his hands are wrapped around my neck his lower gate is exposed and other areas. I know that there is also many basic body angles and shifting that can escape form these positions. But I am talking right now about vital areas.

[Tant01]

sport killing...

...........yawn.

Seriously TC? Your kong-fu is obviously way too dangerous...

Interesting side note... A certain JKD/BJJ instructor I know started off with a black belt in Mantis style kung-fu.

After he started training in GJJ it revolutionized the so called "concepts".



Lets just say the "grapplers" I know are not ignorant of your kung-fu tricks.

Some of us like to play with knives and junk... That'll test your trapping, eh?

Stay safe!

[jubaji]

Excellent post by Tom Yum, as usual.

More unbelievably silly 'please kick my ass' nonsense from TigerClown, as usual.

Mr. A, I think it is a bit irresponsible for you to post such dangerous information in public. If knowledge of the Yellowfin becomes widespread, society itself could break down from all the bloodshed in the streets. Too many supermen could destroy the planet.

[Ben Grimm]

...., you dissect fights from MMA matches, but the attackers are following rules. A lot of street fighters and MMA fighters don't fight on the mean streets the same way as one would fight in the ring. Go and fight a real fighter then show us pics of your face. Or better yet face a real grappler and video tape it and post it here.

[Tom Yum]

This will work to some degree, but you will get very close and in a grapple position. If you are trying to avoid this, the first response might be a stance shift and rearrangement of my footwork to adjust to his foootwork. if he approaches with off balanced footwork, or if i can cause his footwork to be unstable, I can counter with a proper stance movement and redirection of his force. Also, my hands need to be very quick and tricky. He can not know where I am going to put them. But as soon as he touchs me or grapples me, I have to train and know where he is exposing vital areas. And the many hand techniques in Kung Fu with Chuin na and other techniques come in handy for such counters.

If I grapple a person, lets say I do shoot and grab around his waist. Both of my hands are occupied in trying to take him to the ground. That leaves my face groin, neck, back of the neck, spine, joints etc exposed. If I am on top of him, as we see in many MMA fights we see that the closeness of the fighter leaves him vulnerable in certain areas. If his hands are wrapped around my neck his lower gate is exposed and other areas. I know that there is also many basic body angles and shifting that can escape form these positions. But I am talking right now about vital areas.

Even you don't understand what you are saying and you've never spent a single day grappling. No wrestler is going to shoot straight in and grab your waist. The fine martial art of bullshitzu is still in practice LOL!

[Ben Grimm]

Grandmaster of the Bullshitzu style. Imaginary Victories: Countless. Real Victories: None. Special Abilities: Ability to troll on internet forums continuously until banned from one then moves to another. Grandmaster of LARPing and fortune cookie regurgitation.

[TigerClaw]

... No wrestler is going to shoot straight in and grab your waist. The fine martial art of bullshitzu is still in practice LOL!

I know that, I was talking about when they actually do shoot in. I also mentioned when they fake first or wait for me to strike then they shoot. I know when a grappler will shoot in and how they do it and what they wait for. Since I am aware of their tactics it makes it harder for them to achieve the shoot. But in some cases I will even openly allow the shoot or hope for such an attempt, because when they do this then they will find a surprise and they will have set themsleves up for the technique I want to do. Which by the way I have rarely seen in any fights. I don't think the MMA guys are so aware of the techniques I speak of, even though you say they are..

By the way the shoot is not the be all and all of grappling takedowns. There are many ways to escape this and trap, shift, deflect, overpower, strike, lock, lift, roll etc. the attacker when he tries to shoot in and take you down.

[jubaji]

I know when a grappler will shoot in and how they do it and what they wait for. .

No, tigerclown, you really don't. If you ever bothered to workout with even one competent grappler you would literally find yourself on your ass before you knew what was happening (at best).

[TigerClaw]

No, tigerclown, you really don't. If you ever bothered to workout with even one competent grappler you would literally find yourself on your ass before you knew what was happening (at best).

I don't believe so. If a person is unfamiliar with the thousands of techniques in a Kung Fu fighters arsenal, then they must admit that there is many things they are unaware of. I have only mentioned a few of them.

Like I said before, I believe that Chinese Kung Fu is one of the most comprehensive fighting systems in the world and in the various styles there is answers for almost every possible attack.

But I have been focusing in the last little while on the approach of a grappler, how they step in and use their stance distribution, how they telegraph their wight and the angles of their arms and shoulders.

By the way, in the striking area, there is none that compare to kung Fu in my opinion.

[jubaji]

I don't believe so. .

You don't "believe" so because you don't know what you are talking about. People who do know what they are talking about have explained this to you time and time again but you are stuck in Rain Man mode again.





"telegraph"

[TigerClaw]

Seriously, I have never heard statements so fantastic before. A MMA fighter is "unaware"? Unaware of what exactly? Why is this tigerfin/gill/claw living in such a dreamworld?

Also, is he lying about being a teacher? If he was a real teacher, woudn't he have no problem saying where he teaches? And if he is a real teacher, I feel very sorry for his students. It's unfortunate for them that they are going to a McDojo, with a McDojo teacher who is teaching them nothing except to pretend they have claws and other animal parts.

Waiter, can I get the check please?

Yes, I am sure that there are many MMA fighters that are unaware of the hundreds of thousands of techniques in a Kung Fu fighters arsenal and I am sure that you have not heard of the many fantastic things of Kung Fu before. Do you practice Kung Fu? Or are you a wrestler? if you do practice Kung Fu or have, then you should know that there are so many techniques that deal with almost every imaginable attack and especially the approach of a grappler.

I am going to focus for a bit on the approach of the grappler, and their stances, weight distribution, telegrahing, shoulder angle and hand positioning, first motions etc. Also their take down approaches. What I mean by approaches, is the way they set up for a take down. Remember I am not talking about sport judo where they just lock arms and try to sweep eachother, that doesn't work so good when a Kung Fu fighter strikes, locks, presses , lifts, traps and many other striking moves.

Many of the grapplers strengths would seem to be in his ground fighting and angular positioning of his body along with the leverage and proper locking and entangling motions. But even before they try to get to this ground position they have to make certain moves in their approach of the opponent. This is exactly where many techniques can be applied. They can also be done on the ground, but I have been discussing that for a while. lets focus on the approach.

You said,

"...who is teaching them nothing except to pretend they have claws and other animal parts."

Statements like this show that you really are UNAWARE of the Kung Fu teachings. And I teach then alot more than that. We don't pretend to have animal claws, We form our hands in positions that resemble the claws of a tiger etc. If you have ever had a tigers mouth technique tight around your throat, you would be AWARE of what I am talking about.

I am amazed that men who really do not understand Kung Fu would try to mock it so fast. I do not understand all about jujitsu and yet I do not mock it at all. I can learn many things from jujitsu. Some may try to push me into that wrong place and make it sound like I am saying jujitsu and grappling is useless. I am not saying that at ll.

By the way to all who might think the Gracie jujitsu fight against the so called Kung Fu man is any indication of what Kung Fu is like, they are wrong. That fight was one of the most pathetic fights I have seen. Especially when gracie is talking in the backround and he says, "the Kung Fu representative'. This man did not represent Kung Fu as I saw. He doesn't represent me or the many hundreds of thousands of other kung Fu practitioners. The man demonstrated absolutely no Kung Fu at all, as I saw. No stance, no guard, no technique, no combative mind, positioning, no blocking, no kung fu at all.

You said,

"Waiter, can I get the check please"

Well it is going to cost you if you reject kung Fu. You will only loose out on many wonderful things.

[TigerClaw]

Grandmaster of the Bullshitzu style. Imaginary Victories: Countless. Real Victories: None. Special Abilities: Ability to troll on internet forums continuously until banned from one then moves to another. Grandmaster of LARPing and fortune cookie regurgitation.

So traditional Hung Gar, Northern Shaolin, White Crane, Choy Li Fut, Seven Star mantis etc etc etc are all, "Bullshitzu style". You are wrong.

The so called "imaginary victories" are not imaginary. If you don't believe them so what, It doesn't matter to me.

By the way I have never quoted any fortune cookies.

Ben Grimm-grandmaster at lying and attacking other kung fu teachers and waiting eagerly for his chance to mock and expose his own shameful character.

But I still have hope for you. And I still do not hate you. I feel sorry more for you.

[TigerClaw]

You don't "believe" so because you don't know what you are talking about. People who do know what they are talking about have explained this to you time and time again but you are stuck in Rain Man mode again.

"telegraph"

I know what I am talking about. But you, I wonder if you have ever really understood Kung Fu and the massive amount of information that is available in the Kung Fu world.

Also, about "telegrahing", that is a part of our study in Kung Fu, to watch the opponents telegrahing of his position and intent. this is very important. many times fighters expose what they are going to do way before they do it. But if you really understood combat you would be aware of this instead of just rolling your eyes.



And no one has yet shown any good argument against what I have said or taught. By the way I have the experts on my side remember. You have a few men who have swallowed the sport fighting, rules fighting, show and think that that is the "ULTIMATE" fighting.

Truthfully I am not impressed by most of what I see in the MMA fights I have watched. That is my own opinion.

I believe what has happened in part is that the techniques from some other styles have been stripped down to their basic rudiments and the more advanced complex so called flowery moves of many styles have been rejected. Often this can happen when men do not practice hard, they can get lazy in the perfecting of a technique or of developing forms etc. It takes many years to perfect certain fighting styles. but if men have the idea that they are going to just use the most effective and simple strait foreward moves from a style and disregard the rest. This creates a simplistic raw basic fighting style. But Kung Fu does have some very complex and advanced type of movements. they do work, but only if they are perfected.

But to be fair, many of the jujitsu fighting techniques that are still remaining. But as in any more advanced techniques we don't see alot of the more complex Jujitsu by many.

Occasionally I see men who have more skill and technique. But usually the reason I am unimpressed, is that many of the fighters look just like street brawlers who have some kick boxing experience. This is just my opinion, and everyone has a right to their own opinion.

It is kind of like math, you can learn basic math and it will help you with many things in life, but more complex math is needed in other areas and few have this skill. The people who do not do the more complex math, might say, why should we learn that stuff it is of no use to us.

[jubaji]

I know what I am talking about. .

It is obvious to everyone here that you do not. Repeating your ignorance over and over just makes you look more and more like a headcase.