MMA sport fighting and Kung Fu combative.

[Tom Yum]

I started in martial arts when I was about 19, I am 45 now. I think some here may have not really learned much Kung Fu, or they may have given up on it to pursue jujitsu or other type of MMA fighting.

MMA has a lot to offer. In my humble opinion, it doesn't address the whole picture of martial arts because you cannot always test certain techniques - but how else can you get full-speed, contact, spontaneous fighting to see how your techniques work?

To take it to the next level, you would have to use a dummy or paded man. In my opinion, that would make gong-fu training more effective. The paded man comes at you swinging for the fences with boxing, trying to kick you in the nads, push you into the wall, take you down - you can go full bore on takedowns, sweeps, stand up grappling and locks, strikes to large vital areas (finer ones still cannot be attacked).

You can give a padded man a rubber knife with a little ink or better yet a blunt aluminum blade that's been stored in a freezer to try to get some realistic effects - you could respond with whatever you want.

[TigerClaw]

MMA has a lot to offer. In my humble opinion, it doesn't address the whole picture of martial arts because you cannot always test certain techniques - but how else can you get full-speed, contact, spontaneous fighting to see how your techniques work?

To take it to the next level, you would have to use a dummy or paded man. In my opinion, that would make gong-fu training more effective. The paded man comes at you swinging for the fences with boxing, trying to kick you in the nads, push you into the wall, take you down - you can go full bore on takedowns, sweeps, stand up grappling and locks, strikes to large vital areas (finer ones still cannot be attacked).

You can give a padded man a rubber knife with a little ink or better yet a blunt aluminum blade that's been stored in a freezer - you could respond with whatever you want.

Personally I do not like any of the MMA fighting, when I watch it, it looks like a street brawl or bar brawl. I rarely see good techniques. The only things I like about it are some of the jujitsu fighters techniques they use. But then why not skip MMA and do jujitsu.

When I watch the fights of MMA I see very weak stances guard positions, sloppy scrapping, and many open areas to attack. I see hardly any real blocking techniques or circular techniques , I see people grappled to the ground and just lay there when so many vital areas are exposed etc. i also see many who talk very proudly and speak trash talk against the opponent etc. basically I am not impressed at all. That is my opinion, and everyone has a right to their own opinion. I would be far more nervous about fighting some of my Kung Fu masters than a MMA type fighter in a violent attack.

And I have seen full speed and powerful attacks in our clubs and among other Kung Fu fighters. I have had my nose broken, bashed around and hit many times in sparing situations. We used to spar quite hard and on hard ground. no mats.

[Tom Yum]

Personally I do not like any of the MMA fighting, when I watch it, it looks like a street brawl or bar brawl. I rarely see good techniques. The only things I like about it are some of the jujitsu fighters techniques they use. But then why not skip MMA and do jujitsu. .

That's because fight pressure weakens perfect form and technique - its never gonna look pretty, whether you practice gong-fu or boxing. I'm assuming you're relatively new to martial arts? And there's nothing wrong with that.

Any MMA fighter may be able to throw a textbook hook when hitting the bag, a solid one when working focus mitts but your attacker may be unconventional, may have good footwork, different timing or different fighting system - forcing you to throw a longer or shorter hook, so long as you can get your bodyweight behind it and get the opening, it could still send him reeling and give you time to follow up or beat feet.

MMA fighters have an idea of how to put combinations to get openings - not quite as good as muaythai fighters and certainly not at the level of a golden gloves (or good pro) boxer.

There's an excellent boxing coach at Mousel's

When I trained with Pat he helped refine my fundamentals, but kept 'em sharp with lots of sparring. It was always fun and with enough pressure to gauge your experience - whether a complete beginner, coming from a muaythai or other martial arts back ground or competitive amateur and then he'll push you a little further.

Watching him spar against a really good fighter and push the guy to his limits is like watching a gongfu master. Its like watching a boxing clinic!

I would highly recommend boxing with Pat if you get a chance to swing by Mousel's. He's just a great guy, has proved himself in the pros and is just fun to work with!

When I watch the fights of MMA I see very weak stances guard positions, sloppy scrapping, and many open areas to attack. I see hardly any real blocking techniques or circular techniques , I see people grappled to the ground and just lay there when so many vital areas are exposed etc. i also see many who talk very proudly and speak trash talk against the opponent etc. basically I am not impressed at all. That is my opinion, and everyone has a right to their own opinion. I would be far more nervous about fighting some of my Kung Fu masters than a MMA type fighter in a violent attack..

MMA is a relatively new sport, which leaves alot to desire in terms of good sportsmanship - but hey there are guys in the NBA who talk alot of smack and do dirty tricks as well - its part of sports psychology to try to intimidate and get into the opponents head. When that stuff spills over outside of the octagon, yeah it causes problems.

Yes, I've seen some gong-fu instructors who do not mess around and are really good at what they do. Its just a different world, that's all.

And I have seen full speed and powerful attacks in our clubs and among other Kung Fu fighters. I have had my nose broken, bashed around and hit many times in sparing situations. We used to spar quite hard and on hard ground. no mats.

Good stuff!

I'm thinking you're a beginner in the style you practice - again the whole good technique mentality that beginners focus on. Yes, technique is important you've got to put the time in and perfect it, but the results are more important

I still think you've got gaps in your grappling game judging from what you've posted. And sparring with gloves (which most guans use) limits alot of what you can do as a gong fu practitioner in the environment in which it needs to be practiced.

[TigerClaw]

That's because fight pressure weakens perfect form and technique - its never gonna look pretty, whether you practice gong-fu or boxing. I'm assuming you're relatively new to martial arts? And there's nothing wrong with that

No I started over 20 years ago and I have been teaching Gung Fu for many years, I also taught way back as well.

I'm thinking you're a beginner in the style you practice - again the whole good technique mentality that beginners focus on. Yes, technique is important you've got to put the time in and perfect it,

'

Again, I have been in Kung Fu for many years. But you are correct to some degree. Many beginners in Kung Fu will want to fight in form and with style and techniques etc. All this is possible, and it takes many years to develop this. But what happens with many beginners, is that they do it for a year or two and give up. Because they often do not want to practice that hard, or they are not taught to use form fighting in combat. I teach my students to use what I call , "form fighting". By this I mean that they can actually fight in full contact and against a resistant attacker in form. By form, I do not mean they have to stick only with the moves in a specific form, though they can use those also. But I mean that they will be in good stances and their guard will be strong and their bridges, They will also be able to do transitions from stance to stance effortlessly. etc etc. While it is true that beginners have this mindset, once you have been doing it for so many years and developed style and form, balance, timing speed, strength in stances technique etc etc you will find that it is possible and preferable to fight this way This is i believe the intent of many masters who developed forms, along with other things.

Those who give up on this highest idea usually become kick boxers and throw away form and many techniques. They usually say things like, "Oh I gave up on forms they were no good, and you can't fight in a low horse stance, or that flowery fighting doesn't work in real combat etc." Yet these men most likely never mastered their form fighting. This kind of fighting really does take many years to perfect and even then you are still learning. I think few go this route.

You said one other things that I must discuss, you said,

"because fight pressure weakens perfect form and technique "

This will happen if the student does not strengthen their stance and bridges. But if the student learns how to move in stances and to shift their weight and develop deflecting, shiiting, lifting, pressing, trapping, seizing, rolling, and other techniques, the pressure of attack will not weaken their form. the opponent will find that his attack is weakened in stead. This sensitivity to the opponents force and body positioning takes many years also.

I am glad that you are seeking to discuss these issues, they make for much better discussion. Tell me a bit more about your training and style and how long you have been at it and how does your Instructor teach forms and fighting? How does he bridge the two?

[TigerClaw]

MMA fighters have an idea of how to put combinations to get openings - not quite as good as muaythai fighters and certainly not at the level of a golden gloves (or good pro) boxer.

this is a Gung Fu specialty, putting together combinations or techniques to get openings, or setting up the attacker to attack where they want.

[Sagacious Lu]

Holy hell this has become truly assinine.

[TigerClaw]

Holy hell this has become truly assinine.

Please be exact in your words. What do you mean? What exactly are you talking about? What is the "this", in your comment?

[Sagacious Lu]

Please be exact in your words. What do you mean? What exactly are you talking about? What is the "this", in your comment?

I mean this thread specifically and your posts in general. In particular the idea of fighting from a low horse stance (or any of the traditional kung fu stances for that matter) is just flat out idiotic but it goes right along with the other nonsense you've been posting. If you really are teaching others than you are setting them up to get badly hurt if they ever need to defend themselves. It's both irresponsable and unethical. Where exactly is the school that you teach at? If you aren't a fraud you should have no problem providing this information. In fact, if you aren't a fraud you should be eager to show others what you're doing at your school, then maybe you could convince some of us that you have something to say. Please post the name, address and phone number of the school.

[TigerClaw]

I mean this thread specifically and your posts in general. In particular the idea of fighting from a low horse stance (or any of the traditional kung fu stances for that matter) is just flat out idiotic but it goes right along with the other nonsense you've been posting. If you really are teaching others than you are setting them up to get badly hurt if they ever need to defend themselves. It's both irresponsable and unethical. Where exactly is the school that you teach at? If you aren't a fraud you should have no problem providing this information. In fact, if you aren't a fraud you should be eager to show others what you're doing at your school, then maybe you could convince some of us that you have something to say. Please post the name, address and phone number of the school.

I am not going to give names in here, I have no desrie to prove anything.

But as far as fighting in the stances that are in most Kung Fu forms. Yes it can and should be taught that the stances are possible to fight from. IIt is not ridiculous at all. It will only be ridiculous to those that don't learn how to move in their stances and who don't practice hard and for many years.I have fought in stances for many, many, many years and I teach others to do the same. I have seen masters fight in stances and they overcome their attackers using strong stances and footwork.

This is so basic to Kung Fu, you really do not seem to have a strong understanding of Kung Fu or martial arts. Without a strong stance a Kung Fu man has a faulty foundation.

I always fight in stances. I will even take a low unicorn stance and a snake guard for my initial position at times. It works great. A side horse stance is also a good fighting position. One of the clubs I went to long ago never used to enter tournaments, the instructor didn't find need for them and he had different opinions about the rules and the reasons for such things. But one time he was encouraged to enter. I went in to the tournament also with some of our fellow practitioners. But I tell you, when I fought I took a low side horse stance and I overcame men in that.

One time recently, I had a man attack me in a gym, (I have told this story before and it is true), he was a boxer and had some other fighting background I think Kick boxing or some other martial arts. But, when he attacked me I took a strong low stance and as he attacked I shifted into other stances, he was unable to overcome me and got struck often. I also used a high crane stance as a defense when the attacked me with his furious heavy attacks. I deflected his first strike and shifted up and to the side in a crane stance and blocked his second strike and at the same time, from a crane stance I kicked him just beside his groin.

This man was totally surprised at my movements, I suppose he had not thought such fighting was possible, and I used snake style so it was even more unusual to him. He may have thought that fighting like that would not work but he was amazed, so much in fact that he wanted to learn Kung Fu. he even tried to grapple me and found no place to do so, instead he found claws to his face. (Though I did not really hurt him).

I don't know what you are talking about or what world you are from, but to the Kung Fu practitioners who know what I am talking about this is basic.
The closest thing I can say to express sort of what it looks like to fight like this is a well done Kung Fu movie fight. Or a two man sparring set that many styles have.

Lets put it this way. If the moves in many forms were useless and the stances useless, then I would not practice them and they would not work for me as they do in combat.

And no one will get hurt if they practice what I teach them and work on it hard. In fact a few of my students have told me of situations where they have had to use the Kung Fu I taught them and they were victorious.

I am totally surprised at your remarks.

[TigerClaw]

......Holy hell.....

Sorry, no such place.....

[jubaji]

Booooorrrrrrrriiiiiinnnngggggg....

Get some new troll material, or STFU and see a shrink already. Your act is all played out, headcase.

[Sagacious Lu]

I am not going to give names in here, I have no desrie to prove anything.

You are a fraud.

[Ben Grimm]

I've asked him for this information countless times. I'm even willing to come all the way from China with a video crew and film him getting his ass thrashed all over the place.

[TigerClaw]

I've asked him for this information countless times. I'm even willing to come all the way from China with a video crew and film him getting his ass thrashed all over the place.

I have already given information, and I already told you that I am not a scrapper or brawler as you are. My moral aspect is more important to me than the martial arts period.

[TigerClaw]

You are a fraud.

You can think whatever you want but I am no fraud.

Tell me about your training and your teacher and your lineage etc etc etc.