question about silat?

[jondark]

Hello,


I have read many things about the De thouars brothers. Yet, i have heard many negative opinions and things about former students. I am not trying to cause trouble, but i have been to several web sites that have discussed the politics of this matter. I have respect for what the De Thouars brother have done with silat. i just wish to know what is really going on with all this negative press. Can anyone shed some light?

Humbly yours
Johnny

[sikal]

Originally posted by jondark
Hello,


I have read many things about the De thouars brothers. Yet, i have heard many negative opinions and things about former students. I am not trying to cause trouble, but i have been to several web sites that have discussed the politics of this matter. I have respect for what the De Thouars brother have done with silat. i just wish to know what is really going on with all this negative press. Can anyone shed some light?

Humbly yours
Johnny

Well, they are brothers. Brothers fight. That's the bottom line of it. Unfortunately, one of the brothers chose to air the family laundry publicly. This started a landslide of things which became "political."

Here's where things stand now (to the best of my knowledge). Maurice (the eldest, in Holland) and Victor (the youngest) are on good terms. Willem, (the 2nd youngest) and Victor are on good terms. None of the three are getting along with Paul (the 2nd eldest).

Victor and Willem are training with each other. Pak Vic is learning Uncle Bill's Kun Tao Silat and Uncle Bill is learning Silat Serak from Pak Vic. Uncle Bill grew up surrounded by Serak and Silat. His Kun Tao Silat has a lot of Silat influences but his focus has always been on the Chinese Kun Tao.

At Pak Vic's school in California, they teach Silat Serak, of course, Pamoer Silat, Soempat Silat, Kun Tao Silat de Thouars, Aikido, and Western Fencing (coming soon). Pak Vic teaches all of these classes except the Aikido. Uncle Bill takes over the Kun Tao Silat class when he visits (about once / month).

The "politics" (which they have become to a certain extent) originated as brotherly squabbles (which are common in any family) and exploded. It's unfortunate ... but that's life.

I've not yet had the pleasure of meeting/training with Pak Maurice or Pendekar Paul. I have trained with (and still regularly, if not as frequently as I would like, do train with) Pak Vic and Uncle Bill. I know from experience that these two are phenomenal martial artists and really great people. I've never heard an ill word said of the skills/abilities of either Pak Maurice or Pendekar Paul. I've seen both of them on video too and they both seem very good (though it's difficult to judge from a video sometimes ... what I saw definitely supported what I'd heard).

Ignore the politics. If you have a chance to train with any of the brothers, take it. You won't be disappointed. If you're near Los Angeles next weekend (12/16 & 12/17), there's a great opportunity to train with several fine instructors (including Uncle Bill and Pak Vic). For more information, check out http://www.guild-hall.com/afa/ring_of_fire

Regards, Mike

[thekuntawman]

i have a question, if these guys are brothers, how come they dont have the same teachers or know the same styles? who do they learn from?

[sikal]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i have a question, if these guys are brothers, how come they dont have the same teachers or know the same styles? who do they learn from?

Some do have the same teachers. Part of it is the age difference. Maurice was born in 1928, Paul in 1930, Willem in 1936, Victor in 1941.

Maurice and Paul left for New Guinea and were having their own training and experiences when Willem and Victor still lived with their parents. Their parents moved to Pradjekan, Indonesia. During this time, Victor met Pak Tisari Mardjuki and trained with him in Serak, Soempat, and Pamoer. All of them were exposed to Silat throughout their childhood. Willem, though, was more fond of the Chinese Kun Tao that he was exposed to (primarily from a friend of the family whose name eludes me right now, sorry). Several years later, When the family moved to Holland, Victor began training with his Uncle John. Paul and Maurice also returned from their travels and began training. Victor trained some with Uncle John and a lot with Paul.

The bulk of the Serak that the family has came to them from their Uncle John ... though Pak Vic also got some from Pak Tisari Mardjuki. So you see, they all do have the same teacher ... primarily ... except for Willem who was always a "rebel" (in his own words) by pursuing the Chinese arts. He grew up surrounded by Silat and especially Serak so is no stranger to it ... but his passion is and always will be Kun Tao.

Now, Tongkat and Bukti Negara are "child" arts of Serak. These were created (respectively) by Victor and Paul. Before Pak Vic went public with his teaching of Serak, the two of them held Serak as a closely-guarded secret. Tongkat and Bukti Negara were used as "screens" of sorts. People had to train in one art or the other and earn the trust of the de Thouars before they would be trusted with Serak. Tongkat and Bukti Negara are both based on Serak and teach the basic fundamentals, thus giving a practitioner a solid foundation from which to learn the Serak.

Over the years, each brother has also had training in various things that the others haven't. For instance, Uncle Bill and Pak Vic have both studied Western Fencing (I'm not sure what styles specifically). To my knowledge, Paul and Maurice didn't study fencing. Pak Vic has trained in Judo. Uncle Bill has trained in many Chinese arts and also had some training in Ed Parker Kenpo. I'm sure that I'm barely scratching the surface here for any of the brothers. I know very little ... just what I've picked up through conversations with them and reading articles by and/or about them.

For more details, visit these websites:
http://www.serak.net - the website of Victor and Maurice de Thouars

http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com - the website of Willem de Thouars

http://www.buktinegara.com - the website of Paul de Thouars

There are some "jabs" at each other on their webpages ... back to the "brothers fight ... it's part of life" ... but mostly you'll find information about the history of the family and the art(s) they practice. Serak is what they share in common. It is their "family" art in that all of them practice it. Aside from Serak, though, each brother has followed his own path.

Regards, Mike

[Kevin]

Thanks Mike...

..very informative.

~Kev

[sikal]

Re: Thanks Mike...

Originally posted by Kevin
..very informative.

~Kev

NP. Just sharing what I've heard. I'm far from an authority on the brothers or on Silat.

What I can say, unequivocally, though, is that both Pak Vic and Uncle Bill are both incredibly nice men with a wealth of knowledge and experience to share. Anyone who gets the chance to train with either should take it. They won't be disappointed.

Regards, Mike

[Harley]

Outstanding post.
very informative indeed, yes brothers fight and students should not get involved. everything i've heard of the Dethours bros. skills was excellent, that's what it all boils down to. just look at the students they turn out. as for differences in systems, boils down to personal preference.
bottom line, i agree, train with them if you can and ignore the politics.
harley

[bluesteel]

Videos!

Hi Sikal,
You seem to really know a lot about the De thours brothers material!I was wondering if you have seen any of Uncle Bill's tapes and Victors tapes!Are they advanced tapes for people with experience with silat. I want to purchase some of them. Your reply is greatly appreciated.

[Chad W. Getz]

Originally posted by Harley
as for differences in systems, boils down to personal preference.

I hear that the Suwanda system is currently going through this change of preference due to Iba taking over the family system.

[Harley]

a political area i can't discuss due to respect to Ibu Rita and love for Pak Herman. suffice it to say that i'm sure Pak Herman taught what he was good at and thus was different than his father before him. No doubt he did amazing things to promote his system and now God has allowed Ibu Rita that chance. Nothing but love and respect for all the Suwanda family.
Harley

[sikal]

Re: Videos!

Originally posted by bluesteel
Hi Sikal,
You seem to really know a lot about the De thours brothers material!I was wondering if you have seen any of Uncle Bill's tapes and Victors tapes!Are they advanced tapes for people with experience with silat. I want to purchase some of them. Your reply is greatly appreciated.

No, I don't really know that much. I've only known Uncle Bill for 2 years and Pak Vic for 1 year. I just keep my eyes and ears open and retain as much as possible when I'm around either of them :-)

As for videos: I don't know. I've not seen any of their commercial videos (except the "Pentjak Silat Serak" video that's about 15 years old).

Sorry.

Mike

[sikal]

Originally posted by Chad W. Getz

Originally posted by Harley
as for differences in systems, boils down to personal preference.

I hear that the Suwanda system is currently going through this change of preference due to Iba taking over the family system.

Well, this is only to be expected. Ibu Rita is not Pak Herman. Her perspective will be different and, thus, what she prefers to teach will be different.

However, I attended a seminar with Ibu Rita last month and can attest to her skill. She's very good and I had a good time at the seminar. She doesn't speak English so there was a translator there (the host's wife, Siswi Ogle). This was little or no barrier, though, in her teaching. She would do something and we would mimick. Then we would play with it and she would come around and help us.

It was a great experience and, IMVHO, Mande Muda is in very good hands.

Regards, Mike

[Harley]

couldn't have said it better myself.
harley