Why do we still train with Long Blade?

[kaliace]

Greetings,

I often get this question. The Argument is that no one here in the United States will carry something like a Gununting or Bolo. Well check this out and use it the next time you get that question,

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/08/16/city_gangs_turning_to_machetes_police_say/

I heard of this on Paul Harvey of all places. This is a great example of why we still must focus on our training as if it where a real blade.

Thanks,
Michael G Olive

https://www.rattanclub.com

[darrianation]

Just the more reason to get some firearms training!!!

[two sword]

I totally agree. One of the main reasons we still train extensively in long blade.

I saw alot of what the article was talking about in the 80's in Jamaica Queens with the Jamaican gangs. The biggest reason to carry blades this big was because the younger members of the gang couldn't afford firearms yet.

Regular groups of kids would carry long blades all the time...

A common blade fighting length I saw back then was 13' blade minimum...

We didn't have access to firearms back then so long blade was it.

Great article..Thank you.

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

Kaliace- great article! The machete has been a tool/weapon in so many cultures that it is no surprise that is making a come back in crime as well. As I lived in Mass, and continue to work in Mass, I can remember the Kennedy push to outlaw Martial arts weapons..which now will turn to knives and machetes etc. Bladed weapons have existed for centuries and will exist for centuries more, so it is always better to be prepared to defend oneself in the best possible manner or for the worse case scenario!!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[darrianation]

I totally agree. One of the main reasons we still train extensively in long blade.

I saw alot of what the article was talking about in the 80's in Jamaica Queens with the Jamaican gangs. The biggest reason to carry blades this big was because the younger members of the gang couldn't afford firearms yet.

Regular groups of kids would carry long blades all the time...

A common blade fighting length I saw back then was 13' blade minimum...

We didn't have access to firearms back then so long blade was it.

Great article..Thank you.

No shit, true story! I was in Jamaica; at the time they were still pissed at Americans because of the way the elections went (Edward Seaga, Mid 80’s re-election). Many thought the CIA had something to do with it. I was in the military working with the JDf, and I got a lot of "GO Home Reagan", or Hey whitey, you CIA go back you own yard"! I had several attempted assaults on me as well did many other Americans especially in Kingston and Spanish town, and south west coast Around Savanna Lamar (sp). I had to defend myself on several other occasions.

One day I was walking down the street with my partner and some guys drinking at an open-air bar saw us and began to give us trouble. Anyway it became a mob mentality and they came at us with machetes, there were at least 8 of them. We were and always wore civilian clothes, so my side arm I kept in my book bag, I reached in and Pulled out my .45 and one them yelled, "He's got a gun"! And they all ran off. My point is you do not match a machete with a machete! That is idiotic to say the least.

I have also trained in Arnis, and think that knife on knife encounters are extremely rare, and machete on machete encounters are even more rare. Training in swords and such may be fun but not the most practical unless you live where they are commonplace and where they are commonly used for SD and firearms are unavailable.

[two sword]

"Training in swords and such may be fun but not the
most practical unless you live where they are commonplace and where they are commonly used for SD
and firearms are unavailable."

Absolutely!

There have been instances here in NYC that family members and affiliates have seen long blade "exchanges"...like you said no firearms were accessible so we got to see long blade battles in apartment hallways and street sidewalks. At 5 years old I remember hearing screaming and yelling of fighting, blades bouncing off the walls.That was in in my apartment complex in Brooklyn. I don't want to get into anymore detail (some of the mentioned are still alive)...but they get crazy.

Again, Great article...the public needs to know that weapons like those are being carried and used. They always have.

[kaliace]

I am not sure where to begin. I think you have read the article, but the response is perplexing.

Okay yes the old adage about “brining a knife to a gun fight”, but what if it was a little different in your story. What if it was more aggravated crowd and their hatred of you was more intense? Could you have dropped all 8 of the assailants before they reached you? When one or more did reach you, what then? Keep shooting them as they hack off your arms, hands, and then your head. I think it is Idiotic to think that a firearm is an end all too self defense.

Not all of us are in Law enforcement and can carry a firearm. Some of the states will allow conceal/carry but the restrictions on where you can carry are so vast it is almost not worth the trouble. I guess you could carry one illegally but that makes you one of the bad guys, right?

“…and think that knife on knife encounters
are extremely rare, and machete on machete encounters are even more
rare.”
I would have to disagree, the article is a good example of that not statement not being true. Just look at how many people carry those pocket folders. I see the tell all clips on the outside of their pocket.

“Training in swords and such may be fun but not the most practical
Unless you live where they are commonplace and where they are commonly
used for SD and firearms are unavailable”

That statement is also not true. Until you have trained within the aspect of the blade you can not understand. A teacher told me that once you have trained with the live blade and understand the complexities with it, all the rest will start to fall in place, knife, stick, and even empty hand.

Michael G Olive

[DJColdfusion]

I am not sure where to begin. I think you have read the article, but the response is perplexing.

Okay yes the old adage about “brining a knife to a gun fight”, but what if it was a little different in your story. What if it was more aggravated crowd and their hatred of you was more intense? Could you have dropped all 8 of the assailants before they reached you? When one or more did reach you, what then? Keep shooting them as they hack off your arms, hands, and then your head. I think it is Idiotic to think that a firearm is an end all too self defense.

Not all of us are in Law enforcement and can carry a firearm. Some of the states will allow conceal/carry but the restrictions on where you can carry are so vast it is almost not worth the trouble. I guess you could carry one illegally but that makes you one of the bad guys, right?

“…and think that knife on knife encounters
are extremely rare, and machete on machete encounters are even more
rare.”
I would have to disagree, the article is a good example of that not statement not being true. Just look at how many people carry those pocket folders. I see the tell all clips on the outside of their pocket.

“Training in swords and such may be fun but not the most practical
Unless you live where they are commonplace and where they are commonly
used for SD and firearms are unavailable”

That statement is also not true. Until you have trained within the aspect of the blade you can not understand. A teacher told me that once you have trained with the live blade and understand the complexities with it, all the rest will start to fall in place, knife, stick, and even empty hand.

Michael G Olive

One of the things I like about long-blade training is that it makes you even more aware of the distance/positioning between yourself, your attacker, and the weapons involved. That increased awareness/paranoia strengthens your ability to handle shorter range weapons (smaller knives) as well.

However, I heard a quote from Tuhon Chris Sayoc (and yes others have said it, and I am paraphrasing here) "A knife fight is what happens when you forget your gun" The point being, in my opinion, that if you can end a situation from a distance then do it.

However, if you want the truth of it all, there is still only one technique that is guaranteed to keep you safe from literally any attack ever thrown at you. And that is to not be where the attack is when the attack happens.

[darrianation]

[QUOTE=kaliace]

Okay yes the old adage about “brining a knife to a gun fight”, but what if it was a little different in your story. What if it was more aggravated crowd and their hatred of you was more intense? Could you have dropped all 8 of the assailants before they reached you? When one or more did reach you, what then? Keep shooting them as they hack off your arms, hands, and then your head. I think it is Idiotic to think that a firearm is an end all too self defense.

Hmmm...you say a "more aggravated crowd" do you mean larger and more aggressive? Chasing some one down a street with a machete seems pretty aggravated if you ask me. There comes a point that no training in the world will save your ass depending on the circumstances.

Not all of us are in Law enforcement and can carry a firearm. Some of the states will allow conceal/carry but the restrictions on where you can carry are so vast it is almost not worth the trouble. I guess you could carry one illegally but that makes you one of the bad guys, right?

I am not advocating breaking the law, but what weapon you choose for SD legal or otherwise is your decision. The cops won't be there to save your ass. That’s your responsibility.

“…and think that knife on knife encounters
are extremely rare, and machete on machete encounters are even more
rare.”I would have to disagree

Okay, first let me start by saying that I believe if you intend to use a machete, bicycle lock, garbage can lid or any other weapon for self-protection then yes you should learn how to use it and keep up your proficiency in it. So, if your choice is a machete, then train in it.

Okay that said, this response to a newspaper article is absurd. Why? Attacks with long blades in the U.S. are less than 1/10 of 1 % of all assaults. As a paramedic working in several major cities in the U.S. including Washington D.C. and Baltimore Maryland where I worked for Shock Trauma the busiest trauma center on the eastern seaboard I have been to 100’s of assaults with knifes, guns, rocks, cars (as a weapon), you name it I’ve seen it, but I have never seen anyone attacked with a long blade. I have only heard of this happening a few times in the news or by word of mouth and I can count them the times on 1 hand.

Statistically speaking you a far more likely to be assaulted by a rock than a sword or machete. So, should we all take up a MA that has a heavy concentration in rock jitsu? Hmmm....how come no one is standing up for rock training, or soda pop can defense training?

To further illustrate this point, when I was in High school in Arizona one of my classes made a field trip to the Arizona state prison. We got to talk to prisoners and take a tour. In 1982 there were 33 (+ or – 2 or 3) inmates on death row, the thing that most stuck in my mind was out of those 33 inmates 7 or 8 had used rocks/bricks to kill there victims that’s nearly a quarter (24%). And no not one used a sword or other long blade.

So what you are saying is just another example of myth in the martial arts. The reality is attacks with long blades happen but they are rare. You read one article out of thousands of articles on assault and from this you think, “Oh my God I need to start training in machetes”! It’s absurd! Unless you actually intend to use them for SD. However they are hard to stick into your belt without catching everyone’s attention.

That statement is also not true. Until you have trained within the aspect of the blade you can not understand. A teacher told me that once you have trained with the live blade and understand the complexities with it, all the rest will start to fall in place, knife, stick, and even empty hand.

I love how people say "my master says this" or "some great master said said that"! You guys act like they are sacred prophets or something.

[krys]

I have also trained in Arnis, and think that knife on knife encounters are extremely rare, and machete on machete encounters are even more rare.

But they happen..... and if you don't know how they can be used against you you are .......
I go to places where machettes are used, and I won't mind using one if I have to.
They are very convenient at close quarters...

Statistically speaking you a far more likely to be assaulted by a rock than a sword or machete. So, should we all take up a MA that has a heavy concentration in rock jitsu? Hmmm....how come no one is standing up for rock training, or soda pop can defense training?

In Fmas you learn to use many objects as a weapon... projectiles are part of the training...My first silat instructor used to teach me how to fight in bars, broken bottles were a weapon of choice to cut somebody's throat.... If you watch a bar fights you will often see bottles fliying around. I train with projectiles.......

Long blades are very usefull as training tools, training with them makes you sharper....
you cannot afford making mistakes against a blade. If you manage to survive unarmed against somebody skilled armed with a long blade you are good.

[gregimotis]

Could you have dropped all 8 of the assailants before they reached you?

Probably not, but you might get two or three - which is more than you'll get with a machete before they reach you.

When one or more did reach you, what then? Keep shooting them as they hack off your arms, hands, and then your head.

Yes, I'll probably get another one or two before they kill me. Do you seriously think you'll do better with one blade against eight than one gun against six?
What the gun might do is kill enough to scare the others off before they get to you - the machete won't do this. Oh, wait - in the given example the gun did do this, didn't it?.

I think it is Idiotic to think that a firearm is an end all too self defense.

Every military culture in the world, without exception disagrees with you on the relative value of a gun vs. blade.

[kaliace]

Probably not, but you might get two or three - which is more than you'll get with a machete before they reach you.



Yes, I'll probably get another one or two before they kill me. Do you seriously think you'll do better with one blade against eight than one gun against six?
What the gun might do is kill enough to scare the others off before they get to you - the machete won't do this. Oh, wait - in the given example the gun did do this, didn't it?.




Every military culture in the world, without exception disagrees with you on the relative value of a gun vs. blade.

Wow, I did not expect this thread to have so much response.

Now last one first, I must not be expressing myself well enough with this. I agree firearms are great! I have several myself. In the view that was given what of that attacking “mob” they close the distance, instead of maybe taking one or more out, you have just that one technique. That one technique, that you learned gives you a chance to not only stop the attacker but possibly survive. Not just see how many you can shoot. That simple empty hand technique could allow you to get into a better position to continue to fire and not get cut. Have you considered that?

Yeah I guess you are right, that is why the Seals, Rangers, or every special ops team in the word does not train to use a blade. They have given them all up for their trusty firearms……wait no they didn’t. They train heavily in the blade. I wonder why?

[kaliace]

Hmmm...you say a "more aggravated crowd" do you mean larger and more aggressive? Chasing some one down a street with a machete seems pretty aggravated if you ask me. There comes a point that no training in the world will save your ass depending on the circumstances.



I am not advocating breaking the law, but what weapon you choose for SD legal or otherwise is your decision. The cops won't be there to save your ass. That’s your responsibility.



Okay, first let me start by saying that I believe if you intend to use a machete, bicycle lock, garbage can lid or any other weapon for self-protection then yes you should learn how to use it and keep up your proficiency in it. So, if your choice is a machete, then train in it.

Okay that said, this response to a newspaper article is absurd. Why? Attacks with long blades in the U.S. are less than 1/10 of 1 % of all assaults. As a paramedic working in several major cities in the U.S. including Washington D.C. and Baltimore Maryland where I worked for Shock Trauma the busiest trauma center on the eastern seaboard I have been to 100’s of assaults with knifes, guns, rocks, cars (as a weapon), you name it I’ve seen it, but I have never seen anyone attacked with a long blade. I have only heard of this happening a few times in the news or by word of mouth and I can count them the times on 1 hand.

Statistically speaking you a far more likely to be assaulted by a rock than a sword or machete. So, should we all take up a MA that has a heavy concentration in rock jitsu? Hmmm....how come no one is standing up for rock training, or soda pop can defense training?

To further illustrate this point, when I was in High school in Arizona one of my classes made a field trip to the Arizona state prison. We got to talk to prisoners and take a tour. In 1982 there were 33 (+ or – 2 or 3) inmates on death row, the thing that most stuck in my mind was out of those 33 inmates 7 or 8 had used rocks/bricks to kill there victims that’s nearly a quarter (24%). And no not one used a sword or other long blade.

So what you are saying is just another example of myth in the martial arts. The reality is attacks with long blades happen but they are rare. You read one article out of thousands of articles on assault and from this you think, “Oh my God I need to start training in machetes”! It’s absurd! Unless you actually intend to use them for SD. However they are hard to stick into your belt without catching everyone’s attention.



I love how people say "my master says this" or "some great master said said that"! You guys act like they are sacred prophets or something.

Wow man you are wound up tight! You are going to spin right off the planet!

Last time I checked this was a Philippine martial arts discussion forum. Kali is based on the use of the blade. I have received many questions on why we train like we do. This article is a great example of why. I can’t walk down the street with a gun like you. I have to rely on my training in kali to help me. If it is a Machete, stick, rock, brick, tire iron or whatever, I have to rely on my training to give me that one chance to get out, finish the guy, and survive.

That is how I train now. We mean by training with the long blade, or training with as if it were an edged weapon. As several other posts here it brings you the best sense of what is going on. Once you are over the fear and understand the blade the rest of the techniques you can learn fall in much easier. No you can not train for everything; I do not plan of having surviving a brick attack class. (With your payment you receive a free brick)

“I love how people say "my master says this" or "some great master said said that"! You guys act like they are sacred prophets or something”
Bitter party of YOU!

[darrianation]

Nah, I’m not wound up about it. Yes this is a FMA forum but sense I am a RBSD guy I like to put everything into a real word context.

Kali/Arnis/Escrima are highly influenced by the regions they come from in the PI as well as the cultures they come from. Many influences come from the Spanish although FMA predates the arrival of the Spanish. Before this they were strongly influenced by their own indigenous arts as well as from Indonesian and Malaysian fighting systems. What I am saying is that FMA as well as other TMA are culturally relevant.

In the PI it would make a lot of sense to train in long blades, because the warriors of the period used them in battle and farmers and workers used them in their craft. Today it is still common for farmers and others who still carry around long blades such as machetes and use them as part of their living. So, using them for SD makes a lot of sense, and so would training in them. I have seen many people in 3rd world countries who were experts at using machetes even without any martial training. They use them every day for their livelihoods. It wouldn’t take much of an effort to train them to be incredible fighting machines with them.

Now lets cross cultures, let’s say the United States where long blades are not commonly used in the fields or crafts. People here do not make a living using them. They are not commonly used by criminals nor by everyday citizens for self-defense. Martial artists in America whether they are FMA, Chinese based, Japanese/Okanawan, or any other train in long blade for the cultural/traditional sake of it or the joy of it.

In other parts of the world many weapons are either unavailable or illegal for self-defense. In this case other weapons such as long blades may or may not be a sufficient substitute. The fact is they are good and effective weapons, but they have the limitations of scrutiny of law enforcement or society. They lack concealability and they lack commonality.

So what I am saying? While some weapons, techniques, tactics, and philosophies will be relevant in some societies they may not be in other societies. Like Firearms for SD maybes relevant in the United States while in GB(UK) or other areas of the world they may not be. If I went to a foreign country to teach my form of combatives I would have to change a few things to make it relevant for them. Unfortunately when a TMA crosses the oceans to foreign cultures they do not change the curriculum to make a bit more relevant for the new society (in many cases anyway, and when they do people call commercialized).

So, basically If I were to create a system based on RBSD/combatives it would be relevant for many people and parts of it relevant to all people, but not all it will be relevant to all people, cultures, and societies. Also some 50, 100, or 200 years down the road as crime changes legal issues change as well as sports science and performance science changes I would hope and expect my system to change with it to be better, more efficient, and more effective.

Anyway in the America some weapons maybe well suited while others are not. This is what I am trying to say. If you don't know why I think Long blades are not explicitly relevant to us in the United States look at my previous post above. However I have no problem with people training in long blades, or keeping them next to their beds incase of home invasion or burglar, I keep a pair of Arnis sticks next to my bed, but my main weapons are still firearms and knives.

[haumana2000]

well without too much detail I have used rock jitsu, (kidding but true) with all types of rock, as well as soda pop in a backpack. and have unfortunately witnessed several lose their lives to the blade including large kitchen knives to little pocket blades. train with the things that are probable, and relavant primarily, then things like spears and blowguns for fun. I think training with the long blade is perfectly acceptable, maybe you wont get attacked by one, but you sure as shit may choose to use one in the home if you have one.