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  • Pekiti and Dekiti Tirsia

    Hi,
    Wondering if someone can me tell the prime diffrences and similarities between the Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti Tirsia Sirradas systems. Just curious as they both come from Negros and the Tortal family, have worked extensively with the military(although diffrent branches) and favor the ginunting. Anyone have enough of a background with both to comment? Thanks!

  • #2
    Crucible,

    Hello there, I hope that all is well with you. Here`s the deal as I understand it from the mouths of both Tuhon Leo Tortal Gaje and Tuhon Jerson "Nene" Tortal concerning their family system. Kali Pekiti-Tirsia was officially founded in 1897 by Grand Master Conrado B. Tortal on the Island of Visayas in the Philippines. It was always classified as a "Close Quartering" fighting system placing alot of attention on footwork and close quarter combative methodology for aggressively taking ones opponent out quickly.

    GM Conrado B. Tortal was the uncle of "Nene" Tortal and the Grandfather of Leo T. Gaje. Both learned the system from GM Conrado at an early age and early on the word was that both had inherited Kali Pekiti-Tirsia on the founders passing. For the most part for many years alot of people accused Tuhon "Nene" Tortal of living in the shadow of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As every time that there was a public demonstration of the system it was always Tuhon "Nene" introducing Tuhon Leo to demonstrate and answer questions of everyone concerning the system. All the while Tuhon "Nene" would sit, observe and assist whenever requested by Tuhon Leo Gaje. It was clear that publically Tuhon Leo Gaje was the driving force behind propagating Kali Pekiti-Tirsia to the world.

    Not that Tuhon "Nene" Tortal was incapable as he has been given very high compliments by many in the know. Many of those compliments were from my Instructor the late Punong Guro Edgar G. Sulite, he always was very impressed with Tuhon "Nene" Tortals` ability to speak with his movements and not with his mouth. PG Sulite would often compliment Tuhon "Nene" on his knife work among other areas of expertise.

    There is no way that you could ever accuse Tuhon "Nene" of moving like Tuhon Gaje, or vice-versa. They both translated the knowledge that they were given by GM Conrado differently and chose to demonstrate it somewhat differently according to natural talents that each possessed. Tuhon Leo is very impressive to watch and moves with flamboyant effect while Tuhon "Nene" moves more directly to the point and thereby not getting caught up in the flash factor of sorts. Tuhon "Nene" is by nature a very quiet man but don`t let his silence fool you as when he needs to get serious he is quite capable of devouring his opponent. Whereas some say that Tuhon Gaje has been given "Anting-anting" for the ability to speak. Some would say that he has a silver tongue and I would have to agree with this as when he speaks his words bring to life the definition of what it is that he is trying to convey. But as well Tuhon Leo Gaje can more than back up anything that he says on a field of battle. Although both take somewhat different approaches each is more than capable in their own unique ways.

    What does this all have to do with Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas you ask? Well before 1996 I had never heard of this system and even when speaking with Tuhon "Nene" Tortal in Mambukal, Philippines in February of 1996 he would still refer to his family system as Kali Pekiti-Tirsia. I don`t want to get into the politics of things so I will just say that a few months later in the summer of 1996 an issue over money came up and because of it both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and Tuhon Leo T. Gaje were pushed apart from one another and in anger each went their own way.

    Shortly after this I began hearing for the first time of Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and it envoked alot of accusations to fly between the two Pekiti-Tirsia Tuhons which inevitably wedged a greater division between the two. Basically Tuhon "Nene" Tortal started teaching Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas and at that time when asked what it was he stated that it was the same system that was founded and taught to him by GM Conrado B. Tortal (Kali Pekiti-Tirsia) but as it was called from a different dialect in his area of Visayas.

    So I walked away from all of this as Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas being not a different system than that of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia but actually the two were one in the same with the only difference being the dialect spoken and how each of the words spoken define "Close Quartering Fighting" in those dialects. To Tuhon Leo Gaje it is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and to Tuhon "Nene" Tortal it is Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas. But each teach the same system that was taught to both Tuhon "Nene" Tortal and his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje from the founder of that system being GM Conrado B. Tortal.

    Is Kali Pekiti-Tirsia different than Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas? Yes, Just as different as is Tuhon "Nene" Tortal from his nephew Tuhon Leo T. Gaje. As each translated the knowledge from the founder a little differently. You will see alot of similarity between the two (systems / Tuhons) as well some things will be quite different with emphasis being placed on different things in accordance with what each of the two Tuhons dictate as being most important to them individually. I feel that if you want to get the complete picture of Kali Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas alike you need to train under each of the two Tuhons. Not that any one is superior over the other but more so that each walked away from the founder with a different perspective of that system and what it represents.

    This has been my understanding of this whole thing since 1996 when it became an international issue. I`m not sure what the official answer or position is currently some 8 years later. Either way I think that anyone would benefit training under either Tuhon Leo T. Gaje or his Uncle Tuhon "Nene" Tortal if one wishes to excell in Kali Pekiti-Tirsia (Dekiti-Tirsia Serradas). Go well guys, ciao.

    Guro Dave Gould
    www.LamecoEskrima.org

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Guro Dave Gould
      . You will see alot of similarity between the two (systems / Tuhons) as well some things will be quite different with emphasis being placed on different things in accordance with what each of the two Tuhons dictate as being most important to them individually.
      Thanks Dave, or Guro Dave, if you prefer . Very clear reply, covering actually more than I expected to learn, thanks!

      Can someone give me a sense of what some of the diffrent emphasis's GT Gaje and GT Tortal put on thier respective systems? Ie, some of the focus's of Dekiti and some of the focus's of Pekiti? Thanks!

      Comment


      • #4
        By the way, Guro Dave thanks for your reply, I actually have no interest in either the politics of Pekiti or Dekiti. Lifes too short, y'know. More interested in the actual structural/technical diffrences, combat preferences, ect. But thanks, I appreciate the background info which also adds to my understanding of the arts.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm sorry if I sound inexperienced but how does Pekiti-Tirsia differ from Doce Pares then? Both seem to focus on footwork and CQC lethality.

          Are there any differences in theories or applications?

          Comment


          • #6
            A stick is a stick and a strike is a strike. Most difference between A, B or C you'll only find at seminars or private lessons with certified instructors. Ever Master or Grandmaster (Grand Tuhon) have his own training methods and his own way to "build fighters".
            To clarify the differences for yur own you have to study each style at first, because instructor A would ever say that his style is better and instructor C would do the same....

            Regards, Mike

            Comment


            • #7
              Dikiti or Pekiti

              Originally posted by Crucible
              Hi,
              Wondering if someone can me tell the prime diffrences and similarities between the Pekiti-Tirsia and Dekiti Tirsia Sirradas systems. Just curious as they both come from Negros and the Tortal family, have worked extensively with the military(although diffrent branches) and favor the ginunting. Anyone have enough of a background with both to comment? Thanks!

              Hi,there's nothin difers it's just the same thing,it all derive in one Family system of the Tortal's.And Ginunting my friend is best in CQC ,it got more cutting power compare to some long blades.By the way I'm also in service I'm onto G2
              also a Filipino,hope to hear from you in the future.Thanks

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mandatus
                Hi,there's nothin difers it's just the same thing,it all derive in one Family system of the Tortal's.And Ginunting my friend is best in CQC ,it got more cutting power compare to some long blades.By the way I'm also in service I'm onto G2
                also a Filipino,hope to hear from you in the future.Thanks
                Whats G2?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Amo na guili

                  Tani mabalik na lg sila sa Supreme Martial arts. Naka-upod pa ako sg-una parada sg 1st arnis day sg Bacolod sa Supeme martial arts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Crucible
                    Whats G2?
                    isn't that a rank or the intelligence branch in the military?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And, here's the real story between Dekiti Tirsia and Pekiti Tirsia!

                      Wow, we come a long way from back in 1972 when I first began with Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr. Not being his first student I was one among the first 10 to remain for any length of time, and of only two that are left from that time.

                      Dekit Tirsia, Pekiti Tirsia? This takes place early in 1972 during the time Tuhon Gaje was teaching Sinawali as a physical desicplin to patients at the Jersey City Medical Certer. I was on the hospital adminstration team to review new ideas, and at the time we were looking for martial arts instructors to teach the nures some protection skills. Any way, one of the other administrators asked me to attend this demo held at the hospital.

                      When I saw the demonstration of this art, as you may recall from past posts regarding my meeting Turhon Gaje the first time, and as the story goes, I ran up to Tuhon and asked what was this art? I was looking for it since 1963! And, he replied, "Philippine Martial Arts", I said wow, I'm getting married to a Filipino in September of this year, (1972).

                      We got together shortly there after and he asked me to promote this Philippine Martial Art System with him. "Of course", was my reply and we started to develop a plan. In this plan I questioned Tuhon on what he calls this art and he replied, "Pekiti Tirsia", and I continued with, "How did you learn this?", and he replied, "From my grandfather, but I'm using the name Pekiti Tirsia, I want them to know it Pekiti Tirsia meaning close quarter fighting. As the session continued I never recall the name being mentioned more then once as Dekiti Tirsia. During this time I published a booklet in 1977, of which I still have a copy, as a matter of fact, this was distributed in the Philippines in 1979 and the late, great Edgar Suliti
                      was carrying a copy during the precession of fighters. I have the photo somewhere and if pressured I can post it on the net.

                      Anyway, during the first International tour plan with Grand Master Jerson 'Nene' Tortal, a great grand master of noted skill, and whan I question him he proved it by slapping me to the ground around three times or more in 1996 in Bacolod. So when I questioned him about the name Dekiti Tirsia, he explained that the only printed items where destroyed in fire, but they dated the use of the term Dekiti some where around 1898, yes, 1898 or 1897. During my stay with him on every occassion he demonstrated and proved himself and his skill even during the last tour, I watched this great grand master at 67 years old work with every student, in each and every seminar program.

                      To this day I continue to appreciate my meeting great grand masters in many of the Philippine systems of Kali Silat with over 12 trips to the Philippines as early as 1974, when one grand master came to share his skill in Kali Silat wearing a judo gi, ant that was in 1977, and another story.


                      Well as the Conrado Tortal story goes, the family system that remained in the Tortal family was Dekiti Tirsia. .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Nice..... Bit of history there. Thank you...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi masterkalisilat,
                          Since you're one of the "original" students of leo and nene, you can shed light on the "mystery" of the origin of the hubad drill. Was hubad unique to PTK or if not is PTK the origin of the drill?
                          thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Pekiti Tirsia was unique to having nothing original, it was the newbe on the block back then, although I didn't know it at the time, Leo was clever to put it together, compiled form what was shown to him before he left the Philippines in Feb 72. When he asked me to promote the art, I was became involved in exactly what was what and in 1977 I produced a booklet with the 36 attacks of the system, as it was first taught, later it became 64 attacks, and "there where 3 sets of 64", I was told, but that never materialized. In preparing the first letters and articles for the Filipino News Paper we used the name Pekiti Tirisa, later it became Pekiti-Tirsia, since I originally registered it on the net as Pekiti Tirsia. Pekiti as I was told was a change Tuhon Gaje used as he said to me, "I want people to know it's a close quarter system, and Pekiti is easy to understand as Spanish meaning small", said Tuhon Gaje.

                            During our work together I saw the development and growth of PT from other systems, in that Tuhon stayed in the house of GM Dionisio Canete from around October to May of 1979 when he returned with the 'Sagong lebo, lebo sagong, we all said wow. But I found it to be direct from Doce Pares, although when we meet GM 'Nene' Tortal, many years later it was part of the Dekiti Tirsia Saradas, and the drill was not isolated to just the punyo, but in the saradas of DT it had many elements of change. In 1995 I questioned GM Nene Tortal regarding the name. Later when I questioned the written material on the art he said it was lost in a fire, but was around 1897 or there-a-bouts, it was documented.

                            Was this the brainchild of Tuhon Gaje? No, but like many of the techniques he developed for PT the origin of hubad or hubud-hubud was fresh out of many other systems as well, so it's exact origin is fleeting, as it was part of many systems, some with a name, and some without a name.

                            In the concept of SinaTirsiaWali, we discover that many new drills can be isolated from the many variations we strive to develop for ourselves. I think the most important is to recognize the genius of Tuhon Gaje, Jr., in the development of what became segidis, or defenses segitas, developed from the 12th form of Doce Pares I witnessed in 1977 in Cebu.

                            One well known individual from Cebu called him genius in the development of those 12 attacks, yet I believe the material to have been buried since many of the students that practiced the variety of material or 'Doce Methodos' as most knowledgeable Filipinos call it the many methods of practice are necessary to go beyond the practices of the teacher. We believe if you don't get better then your teacher, it's not really showing you the stuff!

                            It is for these reasons that Tuhon and I named SinaTirsiaWali, to break away from the ordinary practices by making the art your own, find out how you do it, what you can do that is different, once it's your own, you become almost unstoppable. Perhaps that's the reason STW has become so popular. The last time I worked with Master Tim Waid 2006 or 2005, he still did not know what I was doing, and in our minds he broke the first law of combat, 'never back up', as many Tuhon puts it, or as I say, we only back up one step if we're going two steps forward.

                            It's not what you practice, it's not what you know, it's not important what I do, or what I practice, it's only, 'Can you stop me, or can I stop you, not matters what!' And that line is fresh out of every Filipino system I've been introduced to.

                            The Filipino art is not a fighting skill, it's a finishing skill, in combat you don't engage in fighting, you are there to survive for you and your people, fighting always has a different agenda, period.

                            Hope this helps to understand that PT, DT, STW, like most of the Filipino arts I've seen over the last 30 some odd years is always, How Do You Do It? Martial arts does not develop followers, it develops leaders, yes that is the hard part, seeing how you do it differently from everyone else. . Being a follower is not in our vocabulary, and I'm please to say several of my student that stay the course have gotten better than I. It is the nature of the beast, to learn and to go foward, we never look back. Not in battle and not in life itself!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks for the candid, honest, and very informative reply masterkalisilat.

                              Comment

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