21 foot rule from "Surviving Edged Weapons"

[Harley]

Hello Guys and Gals,
I know many of you have seen the police training video Surviving Edged Weapons. In this video they used a few people as resources on applications of edged weapons, the time it takes to use one and so on.
They state that if an attacker is within 21 feet of you when he begins the attack you will not be able to draw your service weapon and get a fatal shot off before you are cut or stabbed. THIS INFORMATION IS WRONG!!!!!
I spoke to Tuhon Chris Sayoc, the man who provided that information to the people who did the video. they misunderstood his statement. it't actually 24 feet!!!
let me explain, The Sayoc International Group teaches a well rounded system of knife training, included in this system is the use of projectiles and throwing knives. so the formula breaks down like this, you are 24 feet away from you attacker/opponent,you draw your first knife/tool and throw it at the bad guy. as you throw you take a large step for power (three feet). now you are 21 feet away, and you draw your next blade/tool and begin your best dash toward the bad guy who is thinking about the tool coming at him not the one your holding. I saw this video years ago and it is required viewing for my students, so when i realized this formula came from Tuhon Sayoc i was blown away. What's even funnier is that Tuhon's little brothers used this same formula on the basketball court! to play ball with of course.

[TKOU]

Hey Sifu,
Isn't it a flagrant foul to knife someone one the basketball court? I mean I've heard of guys that could slash to the hole, but I always thought that was a figure of speech! This means my HK answer to getting space on my jumper is more plausible now, hehehehe!]
Seriously though, 24 feet is a long way to complete a knifing. I can't wait to see these guys in action.


TKOU

[Bahala Na]

I just got "invited to leave" a b-ball game because I clubbed their power forward with my ASP to steal the ball. What? it takes a lot of skill to dribble and move while swinging a club!

Actually, Guro Inosanto mentioned this distance at the August Instructor Camp in LA. He said to a few of us who were pestering him and asking questions that for Leo Gaje, the distance was 21 feet. For him, it was more like 24...

Harley, I didn't realize that it had come from Tuhon Sayoc, though. I wonder if that includes their particular method of closing the gap...something I started referring to as "the assault rifle of Kali" after my NYC trip. We've drilled that here a few times, and our guys regularly cover about 18 feet very clean in random type drills when the person who is armed is anonymous. I've never tried it from the standpoint of knowing who's armed and where they are, though. I think I'd be too tempted to intercept with a bullet before the guy ever moved. "No officer, he didn't really threaten me with the knife, but he might have, and it's a chance I wasn't prepared to take."
Mike

[Decado]

While I was going through the police academy in Maine the 21' rule was changed to 30'. Surviving Edged Weapons is a great video if you get a chance to watch it. It was probably the best video shown at my academy class.

Decado

[Underdog]

Actually all of yours are wrong.

The 21 feet rule derivates from a combat shooting drill: the infamous "Tueller drill".

Back in the '70 a policeman named Dennis Tueller has been attacked on the street by a knife wielder, well, after that he discovered that, for a policeman with his hand on his weapon, 21 feet was the minimum distance in which the average police joe would have drawn his gun and shot the attacker.

How he figured exactly 21 feet?

Assuming the average drawing time of 1,8 seconds, that was the timeframe in wich an attacker would cover the distance to the officer; the medium distance was 21 feet.

[Harley]

Underdog,
where did you get that info? i know you are a shooter and are probably right but i trust Tuhon Sayoc on this.
He did provide information to the producers of this tape as well as Leo Gaje and Dan Inosanto. all very reputable people. perhaps they were to back up this finding.
harley

[Decado]

Underdog is correct as far as I know. Dennis Tueller's name has been in every article I have ever read in law enforcement magazines regarding the 21' rule.

Decado

[Underdog]

Maybe you have misunderstood you instructor, Harley; the fatherhood of the 21feet rule is without doubt from Tueller; but I agree with Sayon in one thing; the 21feet are referred to a police officer that has his hand already on the gun; for sudden attacks, where you have to sum up you reaction time, I guess that something like 35-40 feet are more appropiated.

I have worked extensively with gun vs knife; I have a one-shot drawing time of 1.2 secs from concealed weapon (coat on), I gan get away in this time if my opponent is 21feet away BUT only if while he rushes I do a circling step outside the rush attack.

[Underdog]

Ah, I forgot, maybe I was the very first Italian that saw "Surviving the edged weapons" from calibre press, at least that was what I was told from Italian importer back in...'88 if I remember well.

Damn, I was only 22 and faster than hell with my glock (I was the 12th person in Italy to have a glock too..).

[Harley]

Hey Underdog,
perhaps, i will discuss this with him when i see him. as for the distance i really think its a moot point, police officers "interview" from the safe distance of six feet, which i can brige in .66 seconds, no one can
1. percieve a lethal force situation
2. decide to use lethal force
3. physically carry out that action in that time.
in fact most of the time people will percieve the attack as a punch and not a knife attack.
my point is this, 21 feet/24 feet who sees this distance? i have been i altercations at this distance but i left the scene rather than engage an opponent. or called for backup and waited. i also have had a lot of students over the years and training partners,who where police officers, none of them do anything at 21 feet. what this does do to some degree is diminsh the "i'll just shoot 'em" mentality. but doesn't eliminate it.
harley

[Underdog]

I'm absolutely on accord with you.

[Call Me Al]

I saw the video in 91 when I first hired on as a patrol officer. One thing I noticed during the first viewing is offciers rarely will do a interview with a person at more than 6' away. It was the video that got me started looking for a better knife art other than the dangerous TKD techniques I had practiced at our "advanced levels."

Underdog, Harley or anyone, have you found other documentation which justifies empty hand techniques or systems which involves deflection rather than disarm so an officer can get to his weapon in a close quarter edged weapon encounter.

I have tried to explain to supers repeatedly there needs to be some form of training which engrains a close quarters form of deflection so an officer can make the distance to draw his weapon. The biggest problem I face is they "don't want to move from the use of force continuum which says go the gun when they use a knife. It has been explained a knife can be drawn quickly for hidden locations and are typically utilized within 3'-6' because that is the knife range (unless you are trained in Sayoc method and throw a knife or two to close the distance).

Another problem I have faced is most of those I have to go through in the chain to get to the chief have limited knowledge of this and say that "jujitsu stuff" can't take the place of a gun ( my response has been what do you do at that range to get to your gun). I have a good relationship withthe Chief ( and have given him a copy of the Ron Balicki series) and he understands the possiblities of palusut and deflection. I just need some form of documention.(Those in the middle quote the Tueller Rule, liability and Use of force Continuum as the reason they don't want search for other options)

I would like to know if there are articles which could back my argument or have benefited a LE agency in developing a deflection style program?