Filipino Boxing...

[haumana2000]

Funny, cause thats who my Father named me after (Gabriel).

There are MANY articles circulating the net about the friendship between the two legends, and most would posit that YES he had a direct influence, but how much? who knows. Flash also came from a line of FMA practitioners, so it's kind of funny how these circles travel eh?

Mabuhay
hindi magpapalamang.

[peopleschamp]

*Dave Chappelle impersonating a white guy* "What the hell? Damn my-norities."

[bahotae]

I guess I stand corrected in saying that Dumog was derived from the west. I should have said dumog is almost the same as western wrestling. I think almost every culture has their own grappling system. But in the long run I think Dumog mostly resembles western/Olympic style wrestling. Alot of the techniques used are very similar. For example Alas=Arm drag, lubid=grapevine etc.

I still stand on my statement in Panuntukan.

Unless someone else could provide any credible evidence.

[gago420]

Dempsey's footwork

I even heard from Larry Hartell himself during a seminar that Jack Dempsey's trainer was some Filipino guy. Or one of them.

[Reactor]

I guess I stand corrected in saying that Dumog was derived from the west. I should have said dumog is almost the same as western wrestling. I think almost every culture has their own grappling system. But in the long run I think Dumog mostly resembles western/Olympic style wrestling. Alot of the techniques used are very similar. For example Alas=Arm drag, lubid=grapevine etc.

I still stand on my statement in Panuntukan.

Unless someone else could provide any credible evidence.

Bahotae:

One possible start would be to check out vintage American and English boxing matches. See how they box ie fists with palms up, then work from there. Add to this the interaction between the US and the Filipinos after Spain ceded the Philippines to the US and things will start to become clearer.

Most Filipino "boxing" systems (commonly known in North America as panantukan or some version thereof) derive from knife movements, which explains the difference is movement, and Filipino flavor if you will.

It might interest you to know also that this was a debated topic as well in the Dog Brothers Forum. If you're really interested in reading up on what is out there, check it out.

Cheers,
Reactor

[haumana2000]

Hey Brotha Bahotae'
What I am saying about the Fillipino boxing is that way before the west came into contact with the PI, we already had effective empty hands defenses and boxing style techniques (it's human instinct to hit with the arms and fist), so it was simply a natural transition to translate that into a sporting atmosphere like western boxing. muxh like China which also calls many systems "Boxing" that simply indicates a method a of empty hands combat. So have the Philippines always had boxing yes from a combative standpoint a very effective kind, from a sport get in the squared circle? not so much.

[RapidAssault16]

I've been heavily researching the empty hands of the FMA as of late...not only reading about these arts, but delving into my own personal resources (my father, other Filipino martial artists, my training in the PI, etc.) I don't claim to be any sort of expert on the history of the PI but here's what I can add to this discussion:

The culture of the Philippines is a melting pot of different cultures, which include Chinese, Spanish, Hindu, American, Muslim, and Malay. Contact with these various cultures originate from trade routes with these different cultures. Influences come and go...but the Philippine islands has had efficient empty hands way before the introduction of the West to the PI. While I will say that the Western arts do have some influence on the way Filipinos fought, to say that the FMAs were derived directly from Western arts is an extreme claim. The best example I've found of these indigenous empty hand arts is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali empty hands. The use of slaps, head butts, bolo punches, arm-wrenches, elbows, and knees are traditional native Filipino fighting tactics. When Boxing arrived to the islands during the West's involvement with the islands, the Filipinos saw this and interwove it into their already efficient fighting repotoire.

My father used to box in the streets of Paco, Manila in his youth. He is my only link to what is known as "panantukan" here in the states. Despite all my questions, he's never been too open about it, but he has told me the following:

1) In the PI, Boxing on the streets is a pastime among young Filipino guys.
2) The rules were simple: A) Both fighters put on gloves B) The crowd of kids watching forms a circle around the two fighters C) They go at it until someone gets knocked down or out.
3) The standard techniques were the basic boxing blows, as well as the use of the "Bolo Punch", which was a favored technique in those days. The Bolo Punch is basically a swinging hammerfist blow. You deliver it as if you were swinging a machete at someones head. He swears by it, even to this day. If you are to study Yaw-Yan, or research the tactics of the Matigsalog tribe of the PI, you will also see that the Bolo Punch, as a hand technique, takes more precedence over the the basic boxing blows.
4) My father never made it clear if kicking, elbowing, and kneeing were used in his fight days, but he did say this, "This wasn't in the ring...we fought in the street because we had no money to buy a ring. Since it was on the street, anyone, big or small, could just walk in and fight you, and you never knew if that person was a dirty fighter or not." This always leaves the possibility of the necessity of using kicks, stomps, elbows and knees in the street.
5) My father has never studied Arnis or Kali...nor has he ever seen much bladed fighting in his youth. He saw a few knife attacks from a distance, but said that it was just one guy just butchering the victim.

I have trained in FMAs the PI, as well as the FMAs taught in the states. I can only speak from my own experience when I say that the empty hands taught in the PI are different from what we learn at FMA/JKD schools here in the states. In the PI, 95 percent of the empty hand techniques are based off of joint-locking techniques, usually coming from Cadena de Mano (read "The Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima" published by Tuttle Press). Here in the US, and the rest of the West, we in the FMA circles see much of what is called Panantukan: limb destructions, dumog throws, quick-catlike Boxing footwork, combined with boxing punches and elbows, head butts, and knees. These techniques, however, are a rarity even in Manila today.

Here's a story from my own experience: I walked into an Arnis school in Manila (which closed down a few years back) and told them I wanted to learn Arnis. They asked if I had any exposure to the FMAs before, and I told them that I did. They kindly asked me to demonstrate what I knew. Since I didn't bring any sticks with me, I showed them the "Panantukan" techniques I learned in the US. They had a look of confusion on their faces and said, "That's Filipino? We've never seen anything like that before. This is what we do..." They then proceeded to demonstrate locking techniques. I asked them, "Don't you know Panantukan?" They just said, "No"

I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. All I am doing is speaking from my own personal experience regarding the FMAs.

[bahotae]

The best example I've found of these indigenous empty hand arts is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali empty hands. The use of slaps, head butts, bolo punches, arm-wrenches, elbows, and knees are traditional native Filipino fighting tactics.

It's kind of funny that you mention Pekiti-Tirsia Empty hands. Because in 1989 when I was in Bacolod City. I was a member of certain Martial arts club that had close ties to the Pekiti-tirsia. Master Nene Tortal used to go to our gym frequently. All they did was Arnis. They did not practice any other empty hands. They had a separate Empty hands martial art club which was called "Supreme Martial arts" which was nothing but Japanese Karate. Most of the members of the Pekiti-tirsia group were high ranking people in Supreme martial arts. I remember one person who was high ranking in both Pekiti-tirsia and Supreme Martial art was Master Eli Tortal.

So what I'm saying is that until recently Pekiti-tirsia either did not have an indigenous Empty hand martial art or They just did not practice it nor taught it or they just made it up recently.

My father used to box in the streets of Paco, Manila in his youth. He is my only link to what is known as "panantukan" here in the states. Despite all my questions, he's never been too open about it, but he has told me the following:


1) In the PI, Boxing on the streets is a pastime among young Filipino guys.
2) The rules were simple: A) Both fighters put on gloves B) The crowd of kids watching forms a circle around the two fighters C) They go at it until someone gets knocked down or out.
3) The standard techniques were the basic boxing blows, as well as the use of the "Bolo Punch", which was a favored technique in those days. The Bolo Punch is basically a swinging hammerfist blow. You deliver it as if you were swinging a machete at someones head. He swears by it, even to this day. If you are to study Yaw-Yan, or research the tactics of the Matigsalog tribe of the PI, you will also see that the Bolo Punch, as a hand technique, takes more precedence over the the basic boxing blows. .

This type of Boxing is not an art at all. Its just like one those smokers type of boxing that people do. This is still fairly common in the rural parts of PI during fiestas Kids are most of the participants. There is no art involved at all.

You can ask your dad about it I think he'll agree with me.

I have trained in FMAs the PI, as well as the FMAs taught in the states. I can only speak from my own experience when I say that the empty hands taught in the PI are different from what we learn at FMA/JKD schools here in the states. In the PI, 95 percent of the empty hand techniques are based off of joint-locking techniques, usually coming from Cadena de Mano (read "The Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima" published by Tuttle Press). Here in the US, and the rest of the West, we in the FMA circles see much of what is called Panantukan: limb destructions, dumog throws, quick-catlike Boxing footwork, combined with boxing punches and elbows, head butts, and knees. These techniques, however, are a rarity even in Manila today.
Here's a story from my own experience: I walked into an Arnis school in Manila (which closed down a few years back) and told them I wanted to learn Arnis. They asked if I had any exposure to the FMAs before, and I told them that I did. They kindly asked me to demonstrate what I knew. Since I didn't bring any sticks with me, I showed them the "Panantukan" techniques I learned in the US. They had a look of confusion on their faces and said, "That's Filipino? We've never seen anything like that before. This is what we do..." They then proceeded to demonstrate locking techniques. I asked them, "Don't you know Panantukan?" They just said, "No"

I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. All I am doing is speaking from my own personal experience regarding the FMAs.

I also wonder why there are plenty of Panantukan Masters in the States and there are barely any in PI.

Just smell it

[danjuandesiga]

I also wonder why there are plenty of Panantukan Masters in the States and there are barely any in PI.
Just smell it

I myself never heard of Panantukan/suntukan/pananjakman on any formal level as a legitimate FMA while living in the PI.
There is the term "Sipa" but that pertains to a national sport.
As for Dumog/Buno, Yes I have heard about under the Ilocano term "ginnabbo" that was more of a wrestling sport.

Then again, I suppose I can just call them "choice FMA market terms" from the prettiest Tagalog words an FMA'er could come up with to bring attention to the sport/art/method.

Guro Dan Inosanto's 12 Categories of Kali list still fascinates me though...

Chow!
DanJuan

[RapidAssault16]

[QUOTE=bahotae]It's kind of funny that you mention Pekiti-Tirsia Empty hands. Because in 1989 when I was in Bacolod City. I was a member of certain Martial arts club that had close ties to the Pekiti-tirsia. Master Nene Tortal used to go to our gym frequently. All they did was Arnis. They did not practice any other empty hands. They had a separate Empty hands martial art club which was called "Supreme Martial arts" which was nothing but Japanese Karate. Most of the members of the Pekiti-tirsia group were high ranking people in Supreme martial arts. I remember one person who was high ranking in both Pekiti-tirsia and Supreme Martial art was Master Eli Tortal.

So what I'm saying is that until recently Pekiti-tirsia either did not have an indigenous Empty hand martial art or They just did not practice it nor taught it or they just made it up recently. [QUOTE=bahotae]

There are many Pekiti-Tirsia offshoots...Atienza Kali and Sayoc Kali being two of them. The empty hands of both styles and PT Kali do hold similar traits, but they are also quite different.




[QUOTE=bahotae]This type of Boxing is not an art at all. Its just like one those smokers type of boxing that people do. This is still fairly common in the rural parts of PI during fiestas Kids are most of the participants. There is no art involved at all.


You can ask your dad about it I think he'll agree with me.[QUOTE=bahotae]

I actually have asked my dad about it. To an extent, you are right, because it was basically a brawling-style of boxing. My father, for one, was not formally trained. However, he did tell me that many people that fought were trained formally, the only thing was the fact that they had no ring to formally fight in the neighborhood. He has seen people move and fight the same way Panatukan guys do in the US.


[QUOTE=bahotae]I also wonder why there are plenty of Panantukan Masters in the States and there are barely any in PI.[QUOTE=bahotae]

Me too ;-) But I gotta admit that I've seen Panantukan sparring matches here in the US and it is quite an efficent striking system. Regardless of the origins, there is clearly a Filipino-flava going on with Panantukan....which is adopting the traits of different cultures and forming it to fit your own needs. The Filipinos are the original Jeet Kune Do-ers lol.

Going back to what you said earlier about "Supreme Martial Arts" as the empty hand fighting system...it is strange to see that virtually every martial art style in Manila is combined with or taken the place of something else foreign to the land. I studied Modern Arnis Mano Mano over there when I was 13 and it seemed as if all it was was Karate, with a lot of stick twirling. When I was in Manila last Christmas, I couldnt wait to get off the plane to do some Arnis training again. However, I kept searching for an Arnis school (I hit up the Squadron Shop in Greenhills to help me in my search) and there were virtually no schools left. It's odd how Brazilian JJ is now the current MA hit over there.

[DVSJ]

For the most part,most of the guys in here have at least a clue...along with some knowledge on your question.If you ever bump into anyone trying to debunk FMA just treat em like the devil and say "get behind me."Go to the thread titled PARDON ME...you'll know where I'm coming from.As for a direct answer to your question...just punch in the words the others listed (Panantukan,Yaw Yan,Dumog,etc.) on SEARCH...ther's plenty to read...trust me...I have other sites if you're wondering...

[RapidAssault16]

For the most part,most of the guys in here have at least a clue...along with some knowledge on your question.If you ever bump into anyone trying to debunk FMA just treat em like the devil and say "get behind me."Go to the thread titled PARDON ME...you'll know where I'm coming from.As for a direct answer to your question...just punch in the words the others listed (Panantukan,Yaw Yan,Dumog,etc.) on SEARCH...ther's plenty to read...trust me...I have other sites if you're wondering...

Hey, could you post some other site addresses? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.

[DVSJ]

my pleasure...

Hey, could you post some other site addresses? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.

http://members.aol.com/yawyan/...htt...ideo%201/.This last site is one of my favs.They look like a bunch of dopey kids with too much time on their hands but they are fun to watch...FMA isn't the only subject I'm interested in...I got other sites that people may not care for or aren't aware of...my favorites list is off the hook...now you may say I have too much time on my hands ...actually,I do on most days.

[DVSJ]

ooops....here you go.

[QUOTE=DVSJ]http://members.aol.com/yawyan/...htt...ideo%201/.This last site is one of my favs.They look like a bunch of dopey kids with too much time on their hands but they are fun to watch...FMA isn't the only subject I'm interested in...I got other sites that people may not care for or aren't aware of...my favorites list is off the hook...now you may say I have too much time on my hands ...actually,I do on most days.

[DVSJ]

what the..?

wait a minute ...somethings goin on here...those last 2 posts look nothin like the original...