Shivworks

[Sun_Helmet]

"*Guro Rafael...this may be a bit off topic, but what is the Sayoc Kanayan 10 count? "

That's the 'Kayan' ten count, of which there are two that we introduce. It was created as a jump on point for those who have had previous FMA 'flow' type drills. It's basically like most flow drills where one counters the other.

We then introduce Sayoc methods into that drill so that the student can take a training framework which they may be accustomed to already, and then SEE where the Sayoc methods fit into the drill.

We begin to show the one for one beats, diggables, progression of training and also a basic foundation into anatomical concepts of timers and switchers.

As per footwork, that is added in later but basically drills where two people are that close together primarily focuses on body mechanics rather than any exaggerated footwork becauese one does not realistically have the time to move their feet at that responsive range when they are commiting opposing pressure.

Although it does carry a portion of last name (KAYAN being the head hunting ancestors of my family), the drill was named by Tuhon Chris Sayoc to acknowledge the contribution and also to show that it is merely an intro drill into more Sayoc methods.

Hope that helps, Garland. If you have any more questions feel free to contact us at the Sayoc forums, even though this is YOUR thread (sorry, couldn't resist...heh)

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Sun_Helmet]

I'm finished with this topic as I can see it going into a spiral and have no means of allowing it.

coff... contradiction...coff

I rely on doing the best I can for the benefits of the students and the preservation of the FMA in general.

TALK and WALk are two different things because you follow with:

Ah yes YOUR input was the only logic. And NO...you cannot irritate me, laugh maybe.

Thanks for writing that.
Not only does it illustrate that YOU ask a question and then DISMISS the answer in a condescending manner, but reveals HOW you TRULY view other's opinions when they do not agree with yours.
What's even more interesting is that you are responding to QUOTES from OTHER folks than myself which supported the initial statement that you casted doubts on. Yet you dismiss it as MY logic.

I posted that bladeforums link to SHOW folks how the typical John Jacobo "Yours in the Arts" dismissive reply works (predicting correctly that you'd defensively try to qualify the link). So from your responses, let's give it a try-

See below:

It will only support what I am saying.

I will not even comment on that. (pretty good , huh?)

I did not attempt to turn it into a feud between 2 organizations/styles,

Since you described that exchange as being "on the other side of the firing line" this is not even worth commenting on. (hmmm, not as subtle and illustrative)

I did not become irate let alone angry, I did not make subtle challenges, I did not look to confront anyone.

Totally unneccessary to comment on. (ah yes, back to the tried and true!)

Wow, that's actually the easy way to answer stuff - Why not let the link thread speak for itself and not try to qualify it?

BTW...it was also brought to my attention by people IN your organization that I was somewhat chastised because I publicly criticized training methods that were brought into my topic of discussion. Is that a valid reason? I think not.
John J

Are you actually ASKing or merely waiting to reply dismissively?
It's already written like you are quite satisfied with your own answer.

1. You do not specifically state who was chastising you.... you speaking about BAKBAKAN folks or SAYOC folks?
2. "my topic of discussion" Unless it is in your OWN forum and not in a PUBLIC forum.... it isn't YOURS.
3. People 'publicly criticize' Sayoc methods all the time. However, in your case as self -described person that's "Yours in the arts", it can look somewhat hypocritical. On OUR forums we do not criticize any other system's drills or instructors, we do not place value judgements on them by stating they 'boast' or their endorsements as 'played out'.

However, we actually like the opportunity to indicate how far off many critics are from their assumptions about us. From TRAINING rigs, drills, templates, multiple blade carry, stick grappling, projectiles...etc.- you name it, someone needed to get fed some correct info about Sayoc Kali.

It also SHOWS how Sayoc methods have radically affected the knife world in that we are graced with VERY positive feedback from individuals who personify what being "yours in the arts" really is:

"On a scale of 1 to 10, I rate Sayoc Kali a 10.*I personally, highly recommend Tuhon Chris Sayoc to anyone interested in learning the strategies and tactics of edged weapons awareness and self-defense."
Dan Inosanto
Founder / Head Instructor
Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts

Now John, I've already stated that you contribute to the FMA by being a POSITIVE influence, don't let your own words contradict you even more.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
"Not the PAST, but the FUTURE"

[MAMike]

[Ern-Dog]

I was attending a Guro Dan Inosanto seminar in Waterloo, Indiana with my instructor when I first heard about Sayoc Kali. Guro Dan had just finished demonstrating a knife flow drill and was in the process of explaining what system that particular drill had originated. Right in the middle of his demo/lecture he said, "I'll tell you what, if you want to learn cutting edge knife material....check out Sayoc Kali. Those guys are phenomenal."

Some time passed and while getting ready to go down to Florida to visit my Dad I checked out the Sayoc website to see if there was anybody in the area where my dad lived that was licensed to teach the system. I found a name, Ray Dionaldo.

I sought Tuhon Ray out, trained with him, and became his student. I also started attending any Sayoc Kali seminars that I could, that's how I met TUHON Chris Sayoc and Tuhon Tom Kier; then later on Tuhon Raf.

My point is I had never heard about Sayoc Kali. And even with Guro Dan's recommendation I still did not make any final judgments until I actually went out and trained with a licensed instructor and attended a seminar.

I didn't listen to critics who had never trained in the system.......I sought them out with no biases and no blanket assumptions. I went and saw for myself.......I made the choice.......

I also found a new family.

BE THE FEEDER.....

Ernie Lake
Kapatid Apprentice Instructor
Sayoc Kali / Kier lineage
--------
------
---
--
-

[rayfloro]

I'd like to back up Ern-Dog's statement......

Even in Australian Seminars......Dan Inosanto gives accolades to the Sayoc system. In fact, he often shows an "album" of his Masters, and Sayoc Kali is prominent there.

It also amazes me that the biggest critics of the Sayoc system are those that know nothing about it.

There are many who CLAIM to teach the military, SeALS, and Special Forces. When I attended the Sayoc Samma Samma. I ACTUALLY met and traded ideas with REAL Seal Team and Special Forces operatives. And these guys don't waste their time on crap.

As far as military and civilian training goes. We are now living in a world of "Terrorism" where there are no cut and dried "front lines". Military style responses to certain situations are a must, and responsible civilians need to know.

For example.........the civilians in the 911 flights.......the civilians in the Spanish train bombing..........and the civilians in the London bombings.

Granted it would have been nearly impossible to stop these suicide bombers....but in the one in the million chance that you might get caught up in a situation like that.....and "maybe" be alert enough to get a window of opportunity to "neutralise" the threat.........I think a knowledge of the quick kill would be handy.

Raymond Floro

https://www.florofighting.com

[Sun_Helmet]

I think a knowledge of the quick kill would be handy.

Raymond Floro

And Ray's quick kills... are pretty damn QUICK!!!

--Rafael--

[Garland]

That's the 'Kayan' ten count, of which there are two that we introduce. It was created as a jump on point for those who have had previous FMA 'flow' type drills. It's basically like most flow drills where one counters the other.

We then introduce Sayoc methods into that drill so that the student can take a training framework which they may be accustomed to already, and then SEE where the Sayoc methods fit into the drill.

We begin to show the one for one beats, diggables, progression of training and also a basic foundation into anatomical concepts of timers and switchers.

As per footwork, that is added in later but basically drills where two people are that close together primarily focuses on body mechanics rather than any exaggerated footwork becauese one does not realistically have the time to move their feet at that responsive range when they are commiting opposing pressure.

Although it does carry a portion of last name (KAYAN being the head hunting ancestors of my family), the drill was named by Tuhon Chris Sayoc to acknowledge the contribution and also to show that it is merely an intro drill into more Sayoc methods.

Hope that helps, Garland. If you have any more questions feel free to contact us at the Sayoc forums, even though this is YOUR thread (sorry, couldn't resist...heh)

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

Yeah, man...thanks!
So...I'll definitely take advantage of the invitation to the Sayoc forums...hopefully not enough to wear out my welcome...
Again, thanks for indulging me on all my questions, Guro Rafael.

[Sayoc Grappler]

If someone walks up to you & punches you in the face what would be a resonable & moral response? Probably you would punch them back or kick them in the balls. Point is you would want to do somthing as quickly as possible to end the threat. Since being punched in the face wouldn't be considered life threating(in most cases) your response would be considered reasonable,logical & moral because you solved the problem quickly through equaled aggression. Bottom line you increased your chances of survival, you increased your odds for sucess. Now along that same line of thinking if I where to approach you with the sole intention of taking you out as quickly as possible with a very sharp edge weapon, what would be your best chance of survival? Since some people have brought up testing skills in real life senario's
I'm talking about reality, "a real life senario". An aggressive non compliant attacker who will stop at nothing to take you down. What would be a reasonable,logical & MORAL response? I choose LIFE, SAYOC KALI will give you the tools to make that choice. It's up to the individual how he uses his tools. I think that we can agree that we don't ever want to be in that type of situation & any intelligent person should try their best to stay out of those types of situations. I don't want to die at the hands of an "immoral act" & I would really hate to have to take someone out but,to say learning how to survive is immoral or only for LEO or Military is IMO not a very good stratagy IE in REAL LIFE it won't keep you alive. A brutal edge weapon attack is what it is, the reality is if you don't respond quickly & correctly your not going to survive. IMO, training somthing based on denial won't cut it in real life. BTW, I have been in a REAL LIFE situation & it's fast & furious. My Sayoc training saved me & nobody died. Training is a personal thing you get what you put into it. If I ever do make a judgement on a system or stratagy I try to base it on what I will actually be faceing in a "REAL LIFE SITUATION" & I try to base my judgements on real facts not denial. The first & most important rule of combat is to understand your opponant & the realities of what you will be facing. Denying reality won't change it. I am not trying to put down anyones system or POV, I just think that we should try & judge fairly & keep an open mind.

Frank

[rayfloro]

at Tuhon Rafael.


Back to the first post.......I know Southnarc to be a person of integrity.

His methods are simple and straight forward.......he's also one of the few people (like me) that uses the reverse grip/edge in method of knife use.

[Garland]

at Tuhon Rafael.


Back to the first post.......I know Southnarc to be a person of integrity.

His methods are simple and straight forward.......he's also one of the few people (like me) that uses the reverse grip/edge in method of knife use.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I THINK pekiti and dekiti tirsia systems use a reverse grip/edge, along with some other grips...right??? By their numbering systems, in pikal it would make more sense to rip like that then with the edge out.... but...yet again, I'm not an expert.

[rayfloro]

Hey Garland,

I don't doubt that PT uses the same grip.....In fact so does Sayoc and a lot of other systems.

I should have pointed out that the reverse/edge in grip is probably used by Southnarc and I 95% of the time.......hence a greater emphasis on this way of fighting.

[Garland]

Southnarc's stuff is definitly fun to watch. I think my favorite part of his whole set-up is his approach to the mentality an edged weapons encounter.
I know that it might not be unique, and he might not monopolize that type of training...but the fact that he also cites the arts and the systems that he draws from also means alot. Respect and giving credit are extremely good indications of character...which in my opinion....is a much more important attribute than martial prowess. That just struck me as unique to a CQC program...(or EQC, whatever you wish to call it)....

That's one thing about many people involved in the FMA. Most (that I've encountered at least, perhaps I've just been incredibly blessed) are respectful, and courteous...very accomidating people. They tend to get less caught up in the drama that seems to drown out many other self defense systems, and prevent them from evolving or growing as they might benefit from.

I love to see, to some extent, people applying JKD philosophies and concepts to their arts, sometimes without even being aware of it.
Things do tend to complement each other.

[marcdscott]

*edited****

[roz]

john j

hello john
please correct me if i am wrong, but you come from the same family as Canete,Sulite,Presas, etc. ?
if so did you ever have the chance to train with Canete? how was that?
thanks

[Sun_Helmet]

Possibilities/Probabilities

With the recent trajedy and catastrophe that befell the thousands of victims of Hurricane Katrina, and the numerous accounts of rapes, stabbings and other beatings. I think we can safely say that the scenarios some of us described here are no longer remote nor 'theory driven'.

It's just unfortunate that these things happen to good people, but to think it won't happen to you or that you can choose when it does / where it does is wishful thinking at best.

--------

Btw, the reverse grip is often underrated. For many purposes, it is the preferred grip of many long - time Sayoc instructors as well. I do agree that Ray and a few others (never met South Narc) are known to PREFER to teach it more than most.

It was good to see Ray explain why it was HIS preference at Sama Sama 2004 and it pretty much affirmed many things for us while also showing why it works great for his goals. That's the great thing about getting other people to interact, you end up seeing that people who train this stuff regularly, ultimately begin to conclude similar themes.

--Rafael--