UNARMED VS KNIFE

[sikal]

Re: disarm instrux

Originally posted by Chop Wisby
well, knife disarms are something to be careful with; it seems to me that if you want to learn that kind of material, then you want an instructor who is a LEO or has other, verifiable, "street experience" . . .

there's a lot of fantasy stuff out there that can get people hurt.

Chop Wisby

I agree with the essence of your post ... but, in my experience, LEOs know little to nothing about dealing with a knife. If they've got the experience and can do it themselves, then they have a hard time teaching it. If they don't have the experience then they have no idea what they're talking about anyway.

I do agree, though, that you should try to train knife material with people who've actually survived against a knife and/or have trained with live blades. I also believe that, at some point, anyone who wants to really learn about knives should train with live blades. NOTE: I don't feel that this should be done by anyone without a lot of blade training ... and I don't feel it should be approached with anything less than a highly qualified instructor. But, I do feel that if someone really wants depth in their knife work they should have at least some experience with live blades.

Regards, Mike

[Harley]

hello guys,
in tagalog palasut means to let through but most of us use Guro Dan's translation of scoop.
Knife tapping as seen in Pekiti Tersia is a downward scooping motion that is used to pass the blade from one side of the body to the other thus dissolving the energy to gain control of the blade. since attacks are usually multiple angled strikes and thrusts, there is normally a lot of tapping until you gain control of the blade arm. gaining control is the main objective, you dont trap to trap and you dont tap to tap. each has a very specific goal. however, even superb tapping skills will not do the trick against a skilled opponent, i have used it in the street against unskilled assailants (the usual kind) but against skilled artist, you are a dead man. Consider this, Sayoc kali has whole drills dedicated to beating the knife tapping drill. very frustrating. you should check it out. anyway, empty hand vs. knife is the worst case senario.
the shield idea works well, especially if you can also throw it into the attackers face, however i wouldn't throw my shoe because i would then run (needing my shoe). i guess if i had nothing else, no belt, rock, car antanne, etc. Also, the suprise knife attack...if you let the guy surprise you you are dead, proving once again that martial arts are more than just the techniques, add stratagies and tactics. and as the late Edgar Sulite used to say "there are no such things as knife fights, only knifeings!".
harley

[Chop Wisby]

more techniques

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Degen.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Talhoffer.htm

[Chop Wisby]

& more . . .

http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Marozzo.htm

enjoy!

[Danny T]

Originally posted by Harley
hello guys,
in tagalog palasut means to let through but most of us use Guro Dan's translation of scoop.
Knife tapping as seen in Pekiti Tersia is a downward scooping motion that is used to pass the blade from one side of the body to the other thus dissolving the energy to gain control of the blade. since attacks are usually multiple angled strikes and thrusts, there is normally a lot of tapping until you gain control of the blade arm. gaining control is the main objective, you dont trap to trap and you dont tap to tap. each has a very specific goal. however, even superb tapping skills will not do the trick against a skilled opponent, i have used it in the street against unskilled assailants (the usual kind) but against skilled artist, you are a dead man. Consider this, Sayoc kali has whole drills dedicated to beating the knife tapping drill. very frustrating. you should check it out. anyway, empty hand vs. knife is the worst case senario.
the shield idea works well, especially if you can also throw it into the attackers face, however i wouldn't throw my shoe because i would then run (needing my shoe). i guess if i had nothing else, no belt, rock, car antanne, etc. Also, the suprise knife attack...if you let the guy surprise you you are dead, proving once again that martial arts are more than just the techniques, add stratagies and tactics. and as the late Edgar Sulite used to say "there are no such things as knife fights, only knifeings!".
harley

The tapping drills seen in Pekiti Tirsia are only the first step in learning empty hand vs. knife. In pekiti we learn the basic movements then the counters to them and then the recounters. Pekiti knife tapping is a teaching tool to help the practitioner's flow, timing, positioning and sensitivity. It teaches the proper use of the primary, secondary, and tirsiary hands along with how and when to re-engage if you loose control of the weapon hand all the while being fully aware of what position the blade is in (sak-sak or pakal). This changes the presentation of your primary, secondary hands. Again it is only the first step. Once knife tapping is understood we move on to the passing drills, the sissor drills, the locking drills, armbars, and the counters and recounters to each. Again using sak-sak and pakal. Then we work the disarms, strips, and knife reversals. As for as disarms, strips and reversals go they are but a by-product of properly controlling the weapon arm. In each peice of Pekiti Tirsia we work the technique, then learn the counters and recounters.

I agree with Sulite's quote. I don't want to be a knife fighter, I want to be a knifer.

Danny T

[Chop Wisby]

bttt

bttt

[Harley]

Hello Danny
excellent breakdown of the Pekiti training structure. then when you add the knife tapping drills of Illustrisimo and Lameco you really get a well rounded system. all really awesome in their own respects. but when blended, really really smooth stuff. And now with the stuff that Tuhon Sayoc is allowing to be opened to the public from his family system, wow, this stuff just keeps getting better and better.
harley

[Bahala Na]

Aside from the sayoc group, I think that Harley, you probably have the best blade stuff I've ever seen/trained. I was just watching your video private on Disarming the blade yesterday, and it still blows my socks off. However, I have to maintain that, with my current skill base, I think Sig Sauer has the best answer to knife combat I've seen so far, and after several .40 cal holes, disarming (and knife combat in general) becomes much easier to deal with. Several options are certainly available, and yes, I try to work the beejeezus out of my empty hand vs. knife skills. In fact, after seeing the stuff that Harley taught at my school in 1999, I worked up (slowly and extremely carefully) to about a half hour a day of empty hand versus live blade training every day. I got considerably better, but I have lots of little nicks and cuts that taught me that the whole prospect of that particular arrangement is bad policy. I'd say the best attribute you can develop in this situation is the ability to get calm and act decisively, without hesitation. Know you'll most likely get cut, and commit to doing whatever it takes to stay alive. I've been in four edged weapon encounters in my life (three knives and a jagged bottle) and I was cut in three of them. That's why I now carry a pistol.
Mike