Origins of Arnis, Kali and Escrima???

[thekuntawman]

oh i forgot,

i advertise as "kali", "karate", shaolin, etc. this is for business. when the student calls or comes in, i give them the scoop. but if i let them sign up that we do "kali" or "karate" and i dont tell them what i do, that is dishonest.

now, some FMA people think they attack me by telling others "what kind of stuff is that? he's karate, or he's calling it kali", some are in the same city as me, some are here in the internet. some on this forum, and guess what? i dont care, and i dont even have to argue them because they dont say it to my face, and they cant beat me anyway! you want to argue to me? prove that my skill and style is no good. anything else is a waste of time.

[William]

I agree that Filipino stick fighting is evolving thoughout the world not only in the Philippines. But saying that the name does not matter is like saying that a Ferrari and a Neon does not matter, its all the same, since their both cars.

I disagree in the sense that a Ferrari and a Neon have origins that are well known. Yes, they are both cars, but I can trace their lineage back to the beginning. Heck, I can buy a Chilton manual and learn everything there is to know about them.

The same can not be said about FFA's pre Spanish occupation. There is much debate about terms and history before that time. What we can be sure of is that is wasn't called Arnis, Eskrima, or Escrima. Was it Kali? Maybe yes, maybe no. Is it important? Yes, to a point. But I believe it has little bearing on the combative aspect of the systems I've trained and teach today.

There is no doubt in the effectiveness of FMA, no matter what name and style. Its just wrong to make fairytales about it and make everyone believe it as fact.

I would agree with this statement. But let's look at this a little differently for a moment. I've trained in systems termed Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali. The historical perspective taught in each had similarities, but also had differences. Is this because someone was making up stories? Or was it because we are talking about a history that was passed on primarily by word of mouth? When verbal history is passed from person to person, family to family, region to region. Things are going to change. Personal or regional takes added or omitted etc... Over time, stories will change. It's problematic at best imho.

Again, I agree that historical information about a system, the Philippines, and the FFA's in general is important. But for me it takes a back seat to the combative aspect of the FFA's. And let's face it, in the heat of battle, your opponent isn't going to care what the history is, or what you call it. He's just going to want to get away from you as fast as his feet will carry him.


Train hard, be fast.


William

[thekuntawman]

you know, a lot of history is made up. i learned a lot of stories when i was a boy, and found out later its untrue. so i agree it is not that important.

but there are many FMA people who knows that Kali is not taught in the philippines (except for people who use to call there art eskrima or arnis), and the difference between kali, and arnis/eskrima is no different than the difference between LSA and doce pares--they are style difference! but it is the teachers who fool young, ignorant beginners with the lie that, "kali is the forerunner of arnis and eskrima, and it contains 12 arts, while arnis only has 3."

this is dishonest, and people who support it, or dont care, are dishonest also.

[William]

I generally use the term "Kali" because the main system that I teach is termed that from Tuhon Gaje. His reasons for calling that are well known and easy to find on the web. I personally find the "Mother Art" hypothesis suspect and don't propagate it, but I don't have a problem using the term since most people understand now that Kali=Arnis=Eskrima. Differences, as you said, are due to differences in styles (though I prefer to use the term "Systems").

Fwiw, when I'm instructing, I always give credit where credit is due. As I said, our main focus is Pekiti. But when I pull things from other systems that I've trained in, it's not; "this is Kali, this is Arnis, and this is Eskrima". The credit is given system & instructor specific.




William

[banyuhay]

Kali The Warrior,

TO BRO. BAHOTAE
PLS FIND FOLLOWING RESPONSES. HOPE IT WILL LEAD YOU TO ENLIGHTENMENT.

I totally agree with this guy.

THE ORIGINS OF ESCRIMA by Dr. Ned Nepangue


Note: This article was submitted by Narciso "Hansy" L. Alojado to FMA Circle and appears herein toto.

The Origins of Eskrima By: Dr. Ned Nepangue
We can only make a guess as to the origin of eskrima/arnis/estocada since there are no conclusive written records available in the archives to assist us in our research (that is, if we are really serious about this). Earlier writings did mentioned in passing, something regarding pre-Hispanic martial arts in the islands. But we should remember this, that the earliest Europeans who visited the islands did not know the native languages, were not familiar about the native culture at the time, were ethno-centrists, and were in the Orient primarily to look for spices and not to do research on martial arts. Nobody can really say what kind of martial art these early travelers saw (if that was truly a martial art) when they first came that summer. We cannot even say that it was kali they saw, since they were not familiar about martial arts (like Draeger, Smith or Wiley). Let us also take note that during those times there was no unified form of government and people were not hooked in the Internet. People in the archipelago then (and this is still true until today) speak many languages, thus what was true in the island of Panay then, was not necessarily true in the nearby islands of Cebu or Samar. Forcing ourselves to believe that eskrima/arnis/estocada is something pre-Hispanic even without enough proof to support the theory is not advisable.
We only have the following objective facts to help us prove or disprove the current theory of the origin of the eskrima or arnis.

Fact #1 No written records available, which describes what this allegedly pre-Hispanic martial art of kali really was and there is no evidence to prove that eskrima/arnis/estocada martial arts are related to the art of kali.
Earlier writings mentioned how good those early natives were in hand-to-hand combat. These early European adventurers were maybe accurate in their appraisals since they were soldiers/fighters themselves and knew what was good form and what was not. But still the same, these available literatures do not give us details as to what kali really was. So kali can be everything, it can be stone throwing, wild boar hunting, yo-yo playing etc.

THERE IS A WRITTEN RECORD ABOUT KALI READ THE DIVINE BOOKS OF THE HINDUS.
HOWEVER, KALI IS NOT ESCRIMA / ARNIS / ESTOCADA .

Fact #2 Research found out that the natives in the islands before the Europeans came used shields and spears, weapons that are no longer visible in the majority of the contemporary eskrima/arnis/estocada schools.
If it is true that kali is the martial art practice by the ancient warriors in the islands then it must have included the use of the tameng or shield and the bangkaw spear. Since the art of eskrima/arnis is derived from kali as some suggested then it must have these weapons included in the curriculum. Tameng is still useful even in the modern times; in fact riot police are still using this contraption to control angry crowds. Spears on the other hand are still found in many other martial arts.

KALI IS NOT ARNIS/ESCRIMA/ESTOCADA. SHIELDS AND SPEARS ARE USED BY THE SERVANT SOLDIERS WHO ARE PRACTIONCIONERS OF KALI UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF THE TEACHER / MASTER.

Fact #3 The claims that historical personalities like Lapulapu, Tupas and others were really into kali or eskrima remained unproven.
Some so-called authorities of FMA always associate names like that of Lapulapu to eskrima, as if they were around already in 1500s.
The funny fact is they could not even provide name(s) of who's who in the latter years (in the 1600s, 1700, 1800s) to strengthen their claims. How one could claim he is the great-great grandson of the great Mr. So-and-so if he does not even know who his biological father is?

AS IVE SAID KALI IS NOT ESCRIMA. BUT LAPU - LAPU AND THE REST OF OUR ANCESTORS ARE IN KALI .

Fact #4 All eskrima/arnis share more common traits than differences.
The Filipino stick fighting in many ways is really different compared to other stick fighting systems in the region. The eskrima styles as practiced by many Ilocanos in the far north of the archipelago are basically familiar to the styles found in the south, in the Visayas. There maybe differences in some expressions but generally speaking they are the same.

I AGREE .

Fact #5 Practically all eskrima systems/styles are practiced only in the Christianized groups (or those who are under the direct influence of the Spanish conquistadors for 333 years), and that no known eskrima system/style is found among those peoples in the hinterlands of Luzon, among the Lumad and the Muslims in Mindanao.
The Spanish colonized the islands for 333 years, but they were not able to convert the entire population to the Christian faith. There were many ethnic groups left who were not directly controlled and influenced by them. Many of these groups are slowly assimilated still retain many of their pre-Hispanic practices. But if the theory is true that eskrima and the like is something originally pre-Hispanic, then at least one of these many tribal groups could show us sampling of a functional eskrima-like stick fighting art, but there is none.

I AGREE. CAUSE OUR BROTHERS IN THE HIGHLANDS AND IN THE SOUTH
NEVER PRACTICE ESCRIMA.

Fact #6 A link between kali and silat styles is yet to be proven, both are really different in form and substance.
Many creative eskrimadors want to have this "Moro motif" integrated to their styles. In actuality eskrima/arnis has nothing to do with the Muslims groups in the south who have their own very beautiful and lethal martial art of silat. Many people foolishly attempted to establish link between the two, but until now they could not provide us enough evidence. In books and articles on eskrima they always include stories about juramentado just to add dramatic effect, but in reality all of these, has nothing to do with eskrima/arnis. Some insist that some of these Muslim tribes do practice some form of kali art. But if we inquire what tribe is that, they could not readily give answer.
Some say it is in Sulu, but if we ask further which part of Sulu? Again there is no clear answer. Since the 70s when this claim first appeared, and until now nobody can really give the correct answer. Why? Well, the truth of the matter is, there is no kali in the Moroland.
Just a pure fantasy. Is it possible to invent stories and fool the martial arts community? You bet! If you are familiar with the story of the Neolithic they reportedly found in Mindanao called Tasaday, you will easily understand how/why. In eskrima/arnis, emphasis is on weaponry first then unarmed fighting later, but in silat they have the weapons training only later.

KALI AND SILAT STYLE ARE INTER - RELATED.
KALI IS THE CENTER AND SILAT IS THE WAY TO THE CENTER.

Fact #7 About 65% of technical terms used in all eskrima/arnis/estocada developed and propagated by many linguistically diverse ethnic groups are of Spanish origin.
The Spanish language was never totally adapted by the Filipinos unlike those in other former colonies of the North and South America.
This was because the colonial authorities in the Philippines did not encourage the natives to learn the language. For three centuries, only the elite and the educated could speak and write the Spanish language. A strange fact is, a great percentage of technical terms used in eskrima/arnis/estocada (and even the supposedly pre-Hispanic kali styles) are in Spanish, the language most Filipinos then (and now) did not speak. This is also the language used by the authorities who outlawed the practice and propagation of this native martial art. If the practitioners at that time were forced to practice in hiding, then why did they not use their own respective languages and dialects instead of using Spanish?

PRACTITIONERS OF KALI WERE FORCED TO PRACTICED IN HIDING DURING SPANISH ERA AND THEY USED THE MOTHER TONGUE.

Fact # 8The connection between kali and Indonesian martial art of tjakalele is not yet proven.
Tjakalele is practically just a war dance originated in the Mollucas. It uses spears and shields, the weapons, which are not found in 99% of kali schools. Words like kali and tjakalele may sound familiar and related but this not proves anything that both are actually related.

THEY ARE INTER- RELATED (KALI AND INDONESIAN MARTIAL ART ) DUE TO THE FACT THAT PRACTIONERS IN THE COUNTRY CALLED PHILIPPINES AND INDONESIA BELONGS TO THE SAME RACE.

Fact #9 The suggestion that kali is the root word of some words found in different Filipino languages and dialects is not based on linguistics, in fact a study on this claim is yet to be made.
Important pre-Hispanic household words like diwata, Bathala, datu, ulipon are still understood by many and this same is also true with words associated with the warriors, like bangkaw, baraw, tameng. So what is supposed to be the ancient name for the Filipino martial art? Kali? If it is kali then, why don't we find this word in dictionaries of the different Filipino languages and dialects? In fact this particular word was just "re-introduced" years ago. Kali is never a traditional name for the native martial art. If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu for example and ask those eskrima old-timers there if they know what is kali, the will probably say they don't know. And these people are supposed to know better

KALI . ONE OF THE PRACTITIONER I MET CALLED IT Kaalaman Lihim..
BUT KALI IS KALI. AND KALI IS NOT A FILIPINO MARTIAL ART .
READ THE DIVINE BOOKS OF THE HINDUS.

Fact #10 The earliest technical description about eskrima/arnis was available only lately.
The very first known book available in public was Yambao's book in 1957.

AGREE.

Fact #11 Many modalities in eskrima/arnis/estocada like espada y daga are also found in European fencing arts.

AGREE

Fact #12The once Spanish colony of Venezuela in far away South America also have their own form of stick fighting.
The Garrote Larense stick fighting art of Venezuela reminds one of eskrima. There must be a connection between these two martial arts somewhere and further research is needed.


AGREE.

Fact #13 It is baseless to say that eskrima or arnis are just phases of the natural evolution of kali, that is kali being the original form, eskrima and arnis the modern and diluted equivalents.
Kali that we can see today don't differ from eskrima/arnis. Some say that kali is on blades while eskrima/arnis more on sticks implying that kali is more combative, realistic and original form while eskrima/arnis as sanitized intended for sports. But in places where the word kali is not the traditional term used, the eskrima/arnis also included the practice of the bladed weapons. In fact many of those who categorize their styles as kali were actually derived from escrima/arnis styles.

AS IVE SAID KALI IS NOT ARNIS / ESCRIMA/ ESTOCADA.

Fact #14 There is no lack of good blacksmiths and is not the reason why many eskrima/arnis fighters use sticks now instead of real blades.
Many good eskrimadors are not found in areas known for their machete making skills. Many panday or sword smiths do not know eskrima and it is never mentioned in the Philippine history that Philippines were running out of bolos.
I AGREE.

Fact #15 That the theory proposed is actually not corroborated in the works of the experts of the Philippine history, anthropology and sociology.
Intertribal war was a reality especially before the islands became a colony of Spain. When there is war, there are warriors, weapons and military arts. If kali was a military art then history books in high school and college must mention it. I do not remember reading a word kali in our history books when I was still in high school and college, instead in our world history I read words like samurai, katana etc.
Books of anthropology must also provide details about it. It is not mentioned, not because historians are not interested, it is simply because there is no sufficient information about it.
So basing on the aforementioned facts, we can only offer logical comments as to the possible origin of the contemporary Filipino Martial Arts (a bigger portion of which is the eskrima/arnis/estocada/kali). It is basically a product of Filipino creativity and no doubt whatsoever, it is very Filipino. The bulk of its repertoire was developed during Spanish colonial times, and plausibly it got its inspiration from European fencing concepts and practices. It was greatly developed and refined (and the evolution still continues) only here in the islands of the Philippines.

I AGREE. KALI IS NOT A MILITARY ART. BUT THE PRACTITIONERS OF THE
HANDED DOWN FIGHTING SKILLS FROM THE TEACHER/ MASTER OF KALI ARE
THE ONE THAT THOSE FOREIGN INVADERS ENCOUNTERED.

LASTLY, IF YOU WANT TO STUDY KALI , LOOK FOR THE REAL MASTER.

" SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND EVERYTHING WILL BE ADDED UNTO TO YOU "

BANYUHAY
Article taken from: http://fmacircle.ph.tc/

[Sun_Helmet]

TO BRO. BAHOTAE
PLS FIND FOLLOWING RESPONSES. HOPE IT WILL LEAD YOU TO ENLIGHTENMENT.

Some stuff is good, others posing as facts are incorrect.

Fact #2 Research found out that the natives in the islands before the Europeans came used shields and spears, weapons that are no longer visible in the majority of the contemporary eskrima/arnis/estocada schools.

NOT a Fact at all.

See the thread on the fighting friars and the description BY Spaniards of Filipinos not only fighting with "kampilans" but alongside Moor clerics who were there prior to Spanish arrival.

http://http://www.defend.net/deluxef...t=15528&page=4

Do these look like Spanish swords?



FACT:
The design and shape of a weapon belies its intent and purpose.
Therefore, if the Filipinos used a Spanish sword fighting style they would be using swords that look EXACTLY like the Spanish weapons. The native weapons look more like Indonesian and Arabic.


Fact #5 Practically all eskrima systems/styles are practiced only in the Christianized groups (or those who are under the direct influence of the Spanish conquistadors for 333 years), and that no known eskrima system/style is found among those peoples in the hinterlands of Luzon, among the Lumad and the Muslims in Mindanao.

There's an interesting article on hopology at the Dog Brothers site concerning Tatang Ilustrisimo talking and hanging out with Moros who were showing their style of fighting.

FACT: Arnis/Eskrima/Kali are the combination of all the cultures who have come through the islands. The Hindus, the Muslims and the Spanish. What this article completely ignores is that Arnis is just as Chinese as it is Spanish. It is just as Japanese as it is Spanish. Why? because of the systemization and the flavor of movements.

Look at the sinawali patterns - those are not a European fencer's movements, those are Chinese and SE Asian movements.



--Rafael--

[bahotae]

TO BRO. BAHOTAE
PLS FIND FOLLOWING RESPONSES. HOPE IT WILL LEAD YOU TO
ENLIGHTENMENT.

I already knew that Kali is an Indian god. That still, shows no relation to Filipino Martial arts.

You should have said seek ye first Kali the Destroyer and all fantasies will come true. to make your argument more relevant.

[bahotae]

Some stuff is good, others posing as facts are incorrect.

Fact #2 Research found out that the natives in the islands before the Europeans came used shields and spears, weapons that are no longer visible in the majority of the contemporary eskrima/arnis/estocada schools.




NOT a Fact at all.

See the thread on the fighting friars and the description BY Spaniards of Filipinos not only fighting with "kampilans" but alongside Moor clerics who were there prior to Spanish arrival.

http://http://www.defend.net/deluxef...t=15528&page=4

Do these look like Spanish swords?



FACT:
The design and shape of a weapon belies its intent and purpose.
Therefore, if the Filipinos used a Spanish sword fighting style they would be using swords that look EXACTLY like the Spanish weapons. The native weapons look more like Indonesian and Arabic.


Fact #5 Practically all eskrima systems/styles are practiced only in the Christianized groups (or those who are under the direct influence of the Spanish conquistadors for 333 years), and that no known eskrima system/style is found among those peoples in the hinterlands of Luzon, among the Lumad and the Muslims in Mindanao.

There's an interesting article on hopology at the Dog Brothers site concerning Tatang Ilustrisimo talking and hanging out with Moros who were showing their style of fighting.

FACT: Arnis/Eskrima/Kali are the combination of all the cultures who have come through the islands. The Hindus, the Muslims and the Spanish. What this article completely ignores is that Arnis is just as Chinese as it is Spanish. It is just as Japanese as it is Spanish. Why? because of the systemization and the flavor of movements.

Look at the sinawali patterns - those are not a European fencer's movements, those are Chinese and SE Asian movements.



--Rafael--

Sir Sunhelmet I'm sorry but, I'm still unconvinced in this. Through all my contacts in the Philippines mostly in the Visayas and Mindanao region, I still cannot find a master that teaches Bangkaw kag Taming art.

I still think the Visayas and Luzon region have alot of Spanish influence in FMA there.

Mindanao region still retains alot of the Southeast asian flavor same as of that of Indonesia and Malaysia concerning native weaponry due to its resistance to Western Influence.

But its still a whole different culture whether your in Luzon, Visayas or Mindanao.

I've never heard of a Kampilan when I was in the Visayas growing up. The closest thing to a Kampilan I've seen was a Espading, used to cut sugarcane.

I've seen a Kris from an uncle who was fighting in Mindanao.

I've also lived in Mindanao. Still havent seen any muslim teach their art there. Even until now.

Very respecfully

[banyuhay]

bro. bahotae kindly read again my previous responses.
for your guidance, KALI THE DESTROYER WILL MANIFEST TO THE PRACTITIONER WHO MISUNDERSTAND AND MIS- USED HIS BLESSINGS.
AND ONE OF HIS BLESSINGS ARE THE MARTIAL ART HANDED DOWN BY MY ANCESTORS.

" REALITY IN THE EYES OF THE LEARNED MAN"
" MASTERS WILL NOT GIVE BLADED WARRIOR SWORD TO A KID BUT TO THE LEARNED MAN "

RGDS
BANYUHAY

[bahotae]

Sorry Mister Banyubuhay.

Very interesting. I never knew that there are Worshippers of kali in Philippines. I know it has never been taught through my HS and college days in the Philippines. Then again theres alot of stuff that they dont teach in school.

Nevertheless.

I shouldn't have talked like that about something that other people hold sacred.
For that I apologize.

[banyuhay]

Dear Bahotae,
If only you read and understand my responses, i've never said that there are worshippers of Kali in the Phillipines. Instead there are practitioners of kali in a sense of following the teaching of Kali . Not to idol/ worship Kali god you are reffering to.
Those inhabitants before the so called Filipinos recognized only one GOD. and definitely not Kali but they have reverence to Kali god.

I accept you apology, remember knowledge can be acquired not only in school.


rgds/ banyuhay

[Limbas]

...Instead there are practitioners of kali in a sense of following the teaching of Kali . Not to idol/ worship Kali god...
Those inhabitants before the so called Filipinos recognized only one GOD. and definitely not Kali but they have reverence to Kali god.
...knowledge can be acquired not only in school.

The Filipinos revered Kali god? I heard of devotees of Lord Krishna but kali? Definitely not taught in school. May we know where you get this knowledge?

[Shadowpit]

http://www.shaolinchowka.com/shaolin-kung-fu-history/index.html

"click on global martial arts..then on philippines"
very interesting to read. I dont know how acurate it is as far as where the term kali came from...I wasnt there so I couldnt tell ya. Would like to know the truth someday lol. Ive allways refered to it as arnis because of my tito and his collueges who I trained with when I was young, but everyone likes to call it escrima....like I said I dont know how accurate that site is lol...just like my picture of lapu lapu being huge lol..I dont think he was a body builder=/ lol

[Sun_Helmet]

Sir Sunhelmet I'm sorry but, I'm still unconvinced in this. Through all my contacts in the Philippines mostly in the Visayas and Mindanao region, I still cannot find a master that teaches Bangkaw kag Taming art.

Yet for centuries people from Mindanao designed and forged their edged weapons to a certain design, they used these weapons effectively. There's ample historical photographs and written accounts from the Spanish themselves of their efficacy. The above illustration I posted was written by Spanish stationed in the islands, who were impressed enough at the level of weapon design that they took the time to create manuscripts and images for their museums.

Tribal societies in such shows like "Going Tribal", prove a universality of how tribal societies throughout the world pass down their martial skills to their tribes.

The Igorots have been recorded to pass down their skills through certain mockfighting and rights of manhood.

Perhaps the difference between what many consider "FMA" is from the POV of skills being passed down through a certain structure that mimics Japanese, Chinese and Western frameworks of teaching.

I still think the Visayas and Luzon region have alot of Spanish influence in FMA there.

I don't disagree with that.

There is certainly crossover but there's also a lot of Japanese and Chinese arts in there as well. The whole methodology of "flowing" movements is NOT Spanish at all, but more Indonesian and Chinese MAs. You just have to look at the way the practitioners of WMA move compared to their Eastern counterparts and FMA is closer to the Eastern.

Maestro Martinez a Spanish sword instructor once asked me what the sinawali movements were all about when he was watching students at an Inosanto seminar once. It was not a movement he was familiar with. From someone who actually teaches a form of real "eskrima".

When we used to compete in the early eighties in Open Martial Arts tournaments, it would be VERY rare, almost impossible to be placed in a hard style category. Even outsiders looked at FMA movements and placed them to the softer style category because of the circular, flowing Chinese like movements.

I've never heard of a Kampilan when I was in the Visayas growing up. The closest thing to a Kampilan I've seen was a Espading, used to cut sugarcane.

However, if you read the Pigafetta accounts the Visayans weilded "scimitars" and old Spanish museum catalogues show those weapons to look very much like early versions of kampilans. William Henry Scott also wrote about how Visayans used to obtain their forged swords from Mindanao because of the high quality. The Cebueskrima blog even writes about an account of a Visayan hero who used a Mindanao designed sword even though the blog refuses to take into account of Mindanao having a martial art.

I've also lived in Mindanao. Still havent seen any muslim teach their art there. Even until now.

If you look at the hundreds and hundreds of first hand accounts of Muslims using swords, are we logically to come to the conclusion that they did not know how to use them? Or that everyone FORGOT how to use them?

Prior to 1904 are there numerous recorded accounts of ANY Filipino teaching arnis? - does that mean that even though the argument some have professed of Visayans being TAUGHT sword skills by some Spanish friar, one could not FIND a Filipino who did?

Even the bogus "Spanish Friars taught Filipinos Eskrima School" have to use accounts of Visayans using swords DURING war. However, in turn these "scholars" refuse to acknowledge Muslim Filipinos using their weapons DURING War as indicative of a martial art.

Wouldn't people see that's quite an illogical argument and an odd double standard?

It also begs the question that if people want to learn PURE Eskrima why should they study with Filipinos?

There's ample Western schools of the sword out there, there's Spanish sword schools popping up. Why should NON - Filipinos or Fil-AMs study from people who believe they didn't even originate their own skills, but obtained them from priests? Priests by all logical accounts would be second rate practioners compared to Spanish maestros who used swords ALL the time?

Isn't it a way to shoot oneself in the cultural foot? Have these proponents of "Spanish FMA" thought about the long term reprecussions of their ill conceived arguments on this subject?

Let's get back to the design of swords.

A kris or kampilan is made that way for specific purposes.

A kris has no utility value that another working tool can do better. A kris was a killing weapon that creates a wound channel which inflicts serious damage to the targeted body parts.
It also is clearly influenced by its smaller Indonesian counterpart the Keris.
The Keris and the Indonesians HAVE a Martial Art. At one time, there was no demarcation that the Southern islands were part of any country prior to Legaspi's arrival.

With that much thought involved in the way blades were made and the rich martial history of the southern region, are we still going to propose that NO ONE in Mindanao knows how to use a kris?

One more important detail of the creation of "Martial Arts" is that they are usually RECORDED and STUDIED after their time of war. Many Western sword manuals were written by those who returned from war, when the sword was becoming a duelling weapon or when the author was near retirement.

Perhaps the lack of anyone in Mindanao wishing to share their ancestor's sword arts is more an illustration of the great cultural divide and underlying societal conflict that still exists between Southern and Northern Filipino brothers.

In a way, the double standard, self- interest and dismissive arguments proposed by blogs like Cebueskrima are more an indication of Filipino cultural division that is quite apparent to any outsider looking in.

The endless second guessing of their ancestor's martial skills garners an outsider's puzzlement rather than scholarly respect. Do their martial skills only have worth if they hold the Spanish influence as their SOLE source of origin?

Perhaps this ugly remnant is the TRUE influence of the Spanish occupation.

Btw, bahotae you have the best screenname!
--Rafael--

[Sun_Helmet]

Remember The Alamo

What other culture shares a similar history with Spain and the Philippines? Mexico was the other side of the Manila Galleon route and many of the Spanish that served in the Philippines were also part of the Mexican conquest. So were Mexicans using similar weapons during the 1800's?

In 1836, William Barret Travis wrote a letter to the "people of Texas and all Americans in the world" from the Alamo describing that the "the garrison
are to be put to the SWORD" by over a thousand Mexicans under General Santa Anna.

Let's look at this description.

Travis uses the term "Sword" to describe the upcoming conflict.
However, at this time, the Mexican army surrounded and overwhelmed the Alamo volunteers with cannon fire and rifles with bayonets.
The Mexicans who were under Spanish rule for many years won their independence and utilized the arms that Spain had left behind.
In addition, the Mexicans bought a large number of British arms to supplement as far back as the 1820's.

From historical evidence, the Mexican infantry man was armed with "the India Pattern musket, a 39 inch barrel of .752-.760 caliber. It weighed nine pounds, eleven ounces and came with a seventeen inch socket bayonet that itself weighed one pound."

The Mexican light infantry men called Cazadores were armed with lighter muskets (Tercerlos), others carried Baker rifles armed with the 23 inch bayonet. Although firing with the bayonet attached proved the rifles useless. "These (bayonets) were very handy for camp chores, but because it added weight to the end of the gun barrel, it was seldom mounted and rarely seen in hand-to-hand combat." The Cazadores were better trained in marksmanship and tactics than the average soldier.

Now consider these facts :

1. By the 1800's, Mexicans who would have had the closest cross training to Spanish methods of war had already transitioned to the rifles.

2. The bayonet on the rifles extended the weapon's length far enough to simulate a short pike. The preferred Spanish weapon of choice.

3. The Mexicans did not storm the Alamo with machetes.

4. The year of transition started in 1820's, during the time these fictional fighting friars were supposedly teaching our "untrained" natives on the Spanish OUTDATED tactics of warfare... the sword.

5. The term "sword" did not literally mean that the tactics were going to be with a sword.

6. At the Alamo, the one man known for his skills with the blade was James Bowie and many accounts state he had several primed pistols at his side, and he had taken ill by the time of the battle so was not directly influential.

Now knowing the nature of Filipinos and a bit about what was happening during these times... doesn't it poke several large holes in the logic that the Spanish friars taught the Filipinos how to use a weapon that not only the Spanish considered an outmoded weapon, but other countries Spain SUBJUGATED thought so as well?

If we go by the "Spanish taught Filipinos" logic, The Mexicans would have stormed the Alamo with their Spanish trained rapier skills... except the Mexicans would not use actual rapiers but their indigenous war clubs.

Btw, where are all the Spanish friar's Eskrima/Arnis schools in Mexico?

...Filipinos don't even speak Spanish as their primary language...

Remember the Alamo indeed.

--Rafael--