Secretive Styles

[shuyun]

why are some styles secretive about their moves?

Why are certain moves only taught to guros-masters?

[bultwihud]

Thanks

I have read your topic. What's useful innformation for my job.
I do agree with you. Those are the most effective way
have a blessed day

[Movement]

why are some styles secretive about their moves?

Why are certain moves only taught to guros-masters?

it's well spread over martial arts, secretive moves, secretive styles are nothing more then just a big wank. maybe in days of old when it was only passed down from say father to son but those days are gone and almost everyone has experience in martial arts including these secretive moves and systems

[Crafty Dog]

Woof Movement et al:

That may be so where you live but IMHO it is not necessarily so simple as that.

To cite one of my experiences, I had some wonderful training one day with a Manong Kalimba (my spelling of his name could be wrong-- the introduction was via Grand Tuhon Gaje) in Negros but it was upon the condition that I not share it while he lived.

His staff system was unlike anything I had seen before.

He passed away a few years ago.

(Those of you who have our "DBMA: Kali Tudo (c) 2: The Running Dog Game" DVD will have seen footage of Manong Kalimba demonstrating his empty hand game)

I am now considering whether to release a DBMA Ass'n Vid-lesson containing what we have come to call the Kalimba game. The Kalimba Game is something we use not only in staff, but also in single stick, and empty hand.

Here are some comments from a student concerning its efficacy in the context of a discussion on the DBMAA forum concerning my decision to release the previously available only to instructors DVD "The Bolo Game":

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For those that haven't seen the Bolo Game VL it is an awesome dvd, for me it brough together my understanding of the different 'Games' presented in DBMA. I'd heard whispered mentions of the 'Trident Game' and that is covered here as well, the interplay between the Bolo and Los Triques structures (as applied using the Trident Game) is well covered and left me slapping my forehead in a 'Why didn't I realise that!' gesture (in my defence, I think very few people have figured it out on their own).

If you have the Los Triques dvd, the Bolo dvd is an excellent companian in terms of accompanying technique and in applying strategy. There were a few moments in the BG VL where I realised some things I'd been doing wrong.

Shortly after watching this dvd I was invited to go spar limited armour (WEKAF helmets) with another Stickfighting group in my area. Using some of the strategies presented I was immediately aware of how unpredicated they were, it was with a certain sadness that I forced myself to stop using them before they figured it out (I was dominating some pretty well respected UK fighters!)!

Guro C, does this mean that you'll also be releasing the Kalimba VL as a dvd? Because I have another story about using that material.
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Pray tell!
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At the same sparring meet (with the WEKAF helmets), I dominated in staff sparring the same people with a combination of drift shots, uppercut diagonals and a few Kalimba Dodgers. On the last Kalimba-Dodger I broke the staff over the other guys head! This brought the total damage I did that evening to 3 sparring sticks, one WEKAF helmet (I cracked a chunk off of the grill at the same time as breaking one of the sticks) and a staff (a total value of about £110, so about $170, the __ stuff is overpriced ).

Bearing in mind that these guys are very experienced and the idea was 'anything goes' ... I was told to 'Calm down' and never invited back.

I extended an invite to them for all of our sparring days but they don't even return my calls these days....
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IMHO most people have no idea just how seriously some of the Filipino masters take secrecy-- and just how possible it is for things to exist of which we are not aware.

Is secrecy sometimes used as a smokescreen to cover untested fantasty? Of course. Indeed I suspect that most of the time that such is the case!

That said, I have been in the past and sometimes continue to be a secretive teacher-- though this seems to lessen the further I get from my fighting days. ;-)

Something that is causing me to re-consider my thinking is my experience with Manong Kalimba who taught only a few people. In one day I received things from him of great value.

I wonder how much was lost when he passed , , ,

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog/Marc

[shuyun]

from what i heard from by friend who's into bujutsu,

several sword styles got lost this way because of insistence in secrecy. the last living masters die out without passing the secret techniques and they are never recovered.

I hope that doesn't happen to FMA.

I also brought it up because I personally know an FMA style (don't ask it's not against the style specifically general I'm writing about but the culture of it) that has the core techniques only taught to high status members.

But one master of the same style and went on to produce an instructional DVD and "Broke the Magician's code" if you will.

And it's funny how once you get the general idea of what the "secret" is supposed to do, you can probably research it hard enough and see it as a "basic" technique somewhere else.

Funny how that works, old masters never thought the day of easy research will come.

[cinusepin]

Great little topic.
And Nice work--thank you for sharing- for me this makes perfect sense though.

[shuyun]

welcome cinusepin

[Crafty Dog]

"In the day and age of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons and the whole idea of a global village, wouldn't it be more helpful to share and try to proliferate knowledge like those of the old filipino masters? To try and pass on national pride and cultural identity to their kids and grandkids and neighbors, as well as promote their system to others from other cultures?"

True, but I wonder how the martial arts instructor in Florida who taught CQB tactics and techniques to one of the 911 killers feels , , ,

[shuyun]

True, but I wonder how the martial arts instructor in Florida who taught CQB tactics and techniques to one of the 911 killers feels

that's the person though not the art, we can't all be psychics

[tkeplar]

"I make it a point to stick around with people smarter than myself."

....spot on.

tk

[shuyun]

teachers can only impose so much discipline. codes or what not. As RPG players know there is such a thing as LAWFUL Evil.

You can be respectable but evil. So as much as we want to impose discipline in the art we really can't do much.

So is that the reason why masters hold back "advanced" techniques so they can't be held responsible for what their students do?

Well again they can find that someone else, from someone who maybe willing to teach it without the moral constraints.

You know constraints from Yoda so learn from the darkside kinda thing.

[shuyun]

can't see how much more secrecy can "protect" the arts, seeing how almost everyone is making a training video and books and stuff

[tkeplar]

at this point in time, secrecy tends to destroy things like martial arts due to the fact that what remains hidden tends to disappear and or be held in the hands of a select few who do very little with it in many cases except boost their ego. there are exceptions of course.

tk

[Darrin Cook]

Secrecy and Dying Arts

My instructor GM Estalilla met an eskrimador who taught his system to no one, and it died with him.

In the Philippines, I think the challenge match was a key element behind secrecy. As Guro Crafty talked about using his techniques in sparring matches, imagine a barrio (neighborhood or town) fiesta in the Philippines. People are drinking like crazy and itching for entertainment.

You are asked to "demonstrate." There is another teacher there, and it is suggested that the two of you have a "friendly exchange." Maybe it starts out friendly, but when one guy starts losing, and/or the booze kicks in, or he secretly wants to take you down to boost his standing as a master, or he has no control and you get stung --all of a sudden all hell breaks loose.

Although a lot is made of "death matches" I think the real combat was in the barrio fiesta challenge, and the real danger was a loss of face and being discredited as a teacher.

With so much on the line, teachers knew anyone they taught could be challenging them at the next fiesta, and kept the best techniques to themselves.

[Mananandata]

Its not easy to keep secrets.. its an art in itself. Harder than keeping secrets is not telling others that you have some.