Knife

[William]

This thread is not directed at anyone in particular. It's just that I have seen a lot of misconceptions about dealing with a blade showing up in different forums and felt I should throw this out for people to consider.

IMHO, one of the many problems that many martial artists face is learning knife techniques from instructors that don’t really understand the realities of dealing with someone with a blade. I have to admit that in previous arts that I had studied (before I got into the Filipino arts and a couple of real life situations) 98% of the knife disarms and counters that were taught were unrealistic (to be nice) to say the least. Even deadly if you happen to be facing someone who really knows how to use a blade.

Example:

I recently met a person who has been an instructor for 20+ years in an art that you would all be very familiar with (I will not name the art or the person). He is very good at what he does hand to hand. He had developed his own set of knife disarms and counters that he taught to his students. About 8-9 years ago one of his better students was killed in a knife fight in a bar. He felt somehow responsible for his students death (whether he was or not …?) and quit teaching his blade techniques. About 4 years ago he totally revised his techniques (he felt for the better) and started teaching the blade again. About two years ago, one of my former training partners started working in the same company where this instructor works. They started sparring regularly on their lunch breaks and comparing notes. Guess what? When they started doing blade work, most of his techniques failed, taking kill shots or nasty slashes to vital points on his way in. One of the differences was that he was used to practicing the old --- person one thrusts or slashes and freezes. Person two works his technique. Once he tried in a flowing manner where the opponent isn’t going to freeze for you but instead is going to flow and try to take you out… a whole new world was opened up to him.
The point of my rambling here is that it took a lot for this guy to realize how dangerous dealing with a blade wielding person can be. Even after the death of a student, he still didn’t quite get it. I only bring this up because it troubles me to see some of this kind of mentality showing up here. It’s just that television and movies always portray knife fighting in an unrealistic manner, which many people see and believe to be true. There are also (IMHO) a lot of instructors out there who teach blade work who really have no business doing so. In essence they are teaching students how to kill themselves.
Take time to really look at and question any blade technique you have been taught (or came up with yourself). Work it in real time with someone who is of equal or greater abilities than your self and objectively evaluate how effective it really is. Consider a slash or a stab a kill shot and try again. Try it squaring off. Try it with your partner in your face as if he is coming up to ask you for a cigarette and suddenly whips out a blade and tries to stab you when you are toe to toe.

Consider the following:
A sharp knife will cut through the skin as easily as it will through a hot dog. Many arteries and tendons are just below the skin. If a major artery is cut, you could bleed to death (suffocate) in a matter of seconds. If a tendon is cut, that limb/appendage is rendered useless. And in a REAL KNIFE FIGHT, the winner is the last person to die.

Food for thought.

William

[chalambok]

I personally know William, so I feel he will not be offended if I contribute to his little thread here. My pekiti tersia instructor, Al Solomon, always said you have one chance in a knife fight and after that you are pretty much just depending on being lucky. In other words, if you don't succeed in a disarm or a counter-attack during the initial 'meet' if you don't get distance immediately you will probably get cut. Another thing, at the Buddhai Sawan when we practiced knife techniques we needed an area about 20 X 20 because we would jump around and stay as far away from each other as possible just so we wouldn't get cut because we were trying to fight knife to knife. The idea being to only attack when the other person is mispositioned or overextended during his attempt to strike you. I have stated in other threads our theory that if you have time/distance to get your own knife out you have time/distance to throw it at your opponent. Unfortunately many people when they watch a Filipino Martial Arts drill they assume it is the way to actually fight with a knife. Training attributes is very important, but please remember you are TRAINING, and not fighting. Most instructors I have seen in the United States forget the footwork aspect of their 'knife art', rendering it into somewhat less than an art and more into a mechanically inefficient system of rote arm movements, almost always culminating in "then you just step around here and cut their head off."

[Awu]

!?!?!?!?!

[Awu]

Sorry about the last reply, that was just a test. I was having problems posting.

Anyways, your comment about not having a second chance in a knife fight is, in my opinion, false. One thing is for sure, if you are in a knife fight, expect to get cut or even stabbed. The main reason why people die of stab wound or even gun shot wounds is due to the fact that they panic when they see blood or realized they have been stabbed, which in turn will cause you to loose more blood.
I agree with your statement that the initial attack is very important, but you should not look at it as a lost situation if you screw up on the intial attack. As a matter of fact, you should continue the drill from where you end up and keep fighting from there. This in turn will program you not to panic and to have a mental blueprint if the situation should occur.

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

Very good points being brought up by William.
Blade oriented training needs to include non cooperative drilling, sparring, scenario based adrenal response drills, and injury management, in order to make it effective. I would say most of us have sparred in some way shape or form over the years, but mostly this becomes a dueling situation and not really a reality based attack scenario. By adding those type of drills to your training(scenario based) it will enhance your overall survival quotient significantly. I would include drawing and deploying your weapon in a variety of disadvantaged positions (in a car, telephone both, wearing gloves, with an opponent in mount etc) while someone is aggressively challenging you verbally and physically. Also, include non draw(similar to no shoot drills) scenarios to keep you in a legal mindset.
Medical management and injury care should also be a priority. Take a first aid/CPR course to get you started, then learn to VSE(visual self examination) yourself after an attack. Many, many people who have been in a violent conflict didn't realize that they had been cut or stabbed until someone else told them, or they realized they were bleeding after the situation. A blade in someone's hand is very difficult to see and when you think you have been punched, it actually has been thrust into you or slashed into your body.

Just some other points to think about.
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L. -Kayan Dalawa Guro Sayoc Kali-

[William]

Excellent points by everyone so far.

Footwork is absolutely critical in any type of combat oriented training. It
is you first method of protection and is the key to offensive and
counter-offensive maneuvering. As Chalambok pointed out, a lot of people get
stuck in the training mode of standing toe to toe and working counters and
flow drills and not breaking out to include footwork (ranging and bridging
tactics). Don't get me wrong
here, working these types of drills have there place. But eventually you
have to move to the next level and break out of the set patterns and use
these skills in conjunction with footwork.
As my Pekiti-Tirsia instructor Mataas na Guro Tim Waid has pointed out (from
GT Gaje), "you have three strikes to enter and control/quarter/terminate
your opponent or you should range back out again". Essentially, "get in and
get out". You can't stand toe to toe in a knife confrontation and expect to
come out unscathed.
Also, I agree with Steve L. Very good points.

William

BTW, Steve L. I believe I'm in your neck of the woods now. I would like to
get together and exchange notes some time.

[William]

I wrote:


BTW, Steve L. I believe I'm in your neck of the woods now. I would like to get together and exchange notes some time.

I just realized that I may have you confused with a different Steve L. But, if I am in your neck of the woods, the offer still stands.

[Awu]

William,
I dont agree with you, if you step back out of range, you are giving your opponent a chance to carve you a new ass hole. You want to be in as close as possible with tactile sensitivity, because the hand is faster then the eye (you obviously know that). You don't want to give your opponent the opportunity to come at you again or even to have a second to think. If you step out of range after the third strike, you are giving him that chance.

[Brokenmace]

Only 3 things happen at the start of a knife fight.

A) you are attacked first

B) you attack first

C) you both attack at the same time


IMHO, C is the worst case scenario. It assumes that someone was stupid enough to fight when it was obvious that both of you have knives. It is really the least likely outcome. Knife assaults are more common among mix-matched fights (i.e. club vs. knife, hand vs. knife etc.).

Most drills only take into consideration the first two scenarios, because they are the most survivable. They assume one or the other person is closing the distance, or that no distance need be closed. If this is the case, your timing need not be redirected towards either attack or defense. Option C is a one way ticket to death or serious injury, because it relies solely upon your ability to cut first, and you will still get cut in all likelihood, because it will take too long to cover the attacker's angle.

If a man fails to repel an attack or fails to connect with his own attack, he should slash out to largo and attempt to slash up the attacker's weapon hand, preferrably upon the assailant's attack.

Close range knife fighting, knife against knife, is nearly suicidal for both participants. Unless a disarm comes quick, it is easy for both fighters to get cut, no matter their difference in skill. It is like two cats fighting in a box. Both will get scratched.

Most knife deaths are from lung punctures. It only takes a knife 1.5 inches to get through the ribs into the lung. If the knife edge is parallel to the ground, the chances of it slipping between your ribs are very good, and going under the ribs is even easier.

[Awu]

I should have specified that i was talking about a knife-to-hand fight, but i do agree with your point. Two assailant that both have knives is bound to have at least one dead or one extremely wounded

[Brokenmace]

Oh. That makes more sense.

My plan, should running or negotiation become pointless, is to grab the knife arm with both hands. At this point, one of two things will happen if he doesn't react on the instant. 1) I'll break his arm 2) I'll disarm the knife on his leg.

Which comes first depends on both the situation and the point at which I intercept his arm. If the disarm doesn't work immediately, this will go bad for him. I'll break the arm and slam his head into the ground. I will then stomp him repeatedly while looking around for his friends until he isn't moving anymore.

Of course, this assumes that I realize he has a knife. This isn't a problem. I assume everyone walks around with knives, because that was how things were where I grew up. It wasn't a particularly violent place, but that's just what folks did. As far as I'm concerned, everyone has a knife, and I expect to break their arm if I can seize it.

I like to seize the arm to confirm whether they have a knife in fact. Grabbing a limb gives you time.

[William]

AWU wrote:
William,
I don't agree with you, if you step back out of range, you are giving your
opponent a chance to carve you a new ass hole. You want to be in as close as
possible with tactile sensitivity, because the hand is faster then the eye
(you obviously know that). You don't want to give your opponent the
opportunity to come at you again or even to have a second to think. If you
step out of range after the third strike, you are giving him that chance.



That's ok. Sounds like you are talking open hand vs knife. But, I was talking about knife to knife. If you haven't controlled/quartered/terminated your opponent/attacker within that very quick 3 beat time frame, you had better get back out. The longer your in corto range, your chances of sustaining a hit go up dramatically ( I like the two cats in a box analogy). And, as Brokenmace said, you attack on your way out. Now we get back to footwork. In Tirsia-Largo footwork, you back out on a left 180 degree angle (180 degrees from a right forward 45 degree angle), slashing as you move out. This moves you away and to the outside of their weapon arm. Without giving away to much detail, this gives you a brief advantage for a counter-attack.

If a man fails to repel an attack or fails to connect with his own attack,
he should slash out to largo and attempt to slash up the attacker's weapon
hand, preferably upon the assailant's attack.

Exactly my point.

Now, I agree that in America, knife to knife fights/challenges are not common place. But don't forget, we are studying a blade oriented combat system that comes from an area of the world that has a more blade oriented culture. So, knife to knife happens. Training knife to knife (esp when you get to working live blades) really enhances your blade awareness and reaction time/reflexes which in turn gives you a greater chance of success in the types of encounters we've been discussing here.

On open hand and knife, I agree with both of your arguments.

William

[terry]

William, I would recommend you look into the stronger knife-oriented systems, such as Sayoc Kali now that you are in the Northeast. I would also recommend you look up Tuhon MgGrath in the Pekiti-Tirsia system, who lives in Fishkill, NY.

T

[crouton]

hey william, i totally understand where you are coming from with certain instructors that teach things that dont work. i was in the same boat. an amazing system that has a knife program that you should check out is vee arnis jitsu. professor james knows what he is talking about and breaks it down very easily. i am training in this system now and i wish i found out about it years ago. i also have a couple of their videos which are also great. i think there is a satellite vee arnis jitsu school around you. check out their main website and find out, www.veearnisjitsu.com. i hope this helps the discussion.

[William]

Terry wrote:

William, I would recommend you look into the stronger knife-oriented systems, such as Sayoc Kali now that you are in the Northeast. I would also recommend you look up Tuhon MgGrath in the Pekiti-Tirsia system

Crouton wrote:

i think there is a satellite vee arnis jitsu school around you.

Thanks for the information Terry and Crouton. I always keep an open mind and look for like minded people to train with. I have heard good things about Sayoc Kali and Vee Arnis (I'll check them out) and I am currently training Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I had been in intermintent contact with Tuhon McGrath until the birth of his children. I know he's very busy now.

William