Knife

[crouton]

Airyu wrote:

I suggest you dress in street clothes and practice with realistic attacks in a variety of "real world" environmental conditions. These would include in between cars(simulating an attack in a parking lot), stairways, phone booths, from a seated position, seated position with people on both sides of you, while your hands are slippery(simulating blood or being wet), from the prone or on your back positions etc, etc. Film all of your scenarios and review them later to see what did and did not work.

that is an excellent way to train. it shows you different scenarios that could arise that you might not think of in the dojo. i hate to sound like an ad but professor david james from vee arnis jitsu has a tape out called VAJ Street Self Defense Concepts, Vol V. He goes out into different situations like a staircase or elevator and shows you real life close-quarter self-defense. a very effective tape to learn from.

[Airyu]

Hello Crouton,

I'll have to get the tape in the near future. What is interesting in many sytems of blade fighting is the lack of scenario based drills. Most will start a dueling/sparring session, thinking that will teach them all there is to know about knife or blade fighting. The Dueling methodology ingrains good attributes but also forces the two(or more) players into a sparring engagement. Both opponents know that the other is looking for the kill or point or hit (whatever) but without the real world conditions such as low light, fear, tunnel vision etc. These elements are what someone who is serious about protecting themselves should also be sure to be practicing for. Dueling is a good tool, just as any other form of sparring is, but it should not be confused with the "way", only that is a part of the whole process of preparation.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[William]

Excellent!
I'm glad to see this thread continue to take a very constructive path. Great
advice.
I am a big fan of scenario/environmental based training. Working different
confrontational situations by moonlight in parks, parking lots and school
yards* can be very effective. Also, confined areas like hall ways, door
ways, and small cluttered rooms should also be utilized because there is no
guaranty that an attack will happen in a setting that will allow you the
luxury of mobility. Setting up a scenario like going to your car after dark
when there are a few shady looking guys close by. Don't tell the subject
whether they will attack or not. And don't always make the attacker
"obvious". Play it out a number of times. Mix it up with a lone attacker who
comes from a different direction than the three trash talkin gangers. Have a
lone attacker hit the three while they are harassing the subject at his car.
The point is, mix it up so they will have to learn to react and adapt
quickly to an unknown and uncontrollable stimulus. Do you have time to draw your blade? If not, can you react and defend against the attackers blade OH? Work them and see, I can be a real eye-opener!
Another key is mental training. Use visualization to put yourself into a
dangerous situation and imagine how you would react to come through alive.
Develop the attitude that you will not stop/give up until either you can
escape or take them to the point that they're no longer able to continue the
attack. And last resort: Imagine that you have no way to escape, and even
though you might not come through alive, you are going to f*** them up as
bad as you can before you go out. Be realistic about it (your not superman)
and come to the realization that you might have to take someone out to save
your self. When I think of this type of training, this vision of a "real
life" news video captured from a helicopter a number of years ago comes to
my mind. A guy is chasing (with a metal pipe) a women down a street/alley
and she runs into a fenced area with no way out. When she realizes she is
trapped, she turns around and drops to her knees and starts pleading. As the
guy walks up, he winds up and caves her head in with the pipe. Personally, I
can't understand just giving up like that. But I know not everyone thinks
the way I do. But I think visualization and mental conditioning (with
scenario/environmental based training) can help people retain better control
in these type of situations. I could go into a lengthy but perfect example,
but it's not FMA/MA related so I'll refrain.

Keep a good thread going! Great points everyone!!

William

BTW, Crouton- I looked at the website but didn't see anyone listed around my
area. Maybe I just missed it?

*School yards can be a tricky area to train. We actually had someone call
the police one evening while we were training. We were way off in one corner
in a stand of trees just after dark. Three officers approached us, two
circling one way, the third circling from the other direction. We noticed
them a ways off but just continued to train, I felt it would be suspicious
if we all of a sudden stopped and started hustling to put our gear away. The
two approached us first and once they found out what we were doing they
relaxed and started asking questions about the type off training we were
doing. Shortly there after the third officer came out off the brush behind
us and joined in the conversation. After about 20 minutes of talking MA they
apologized and suggested we might want to find another place to do this
since apparently we were making some of the neighbors nervous.

[crouton]

hey william
im sorry about that, i dont really know too much about the new england school but i will find out what i can. i know the website is www.veearnisjits-ne.com though. its not a big site but they have an email address on it that you can contact them and get some information.

great thread though everyone.

[William]

Just out of curiosity.
How many of you REALLY emphasize footwork, beyond the basic male & female triangle, in your training? Do you work ranging tactics or do you stay in the medio range and work your drills?

William

[Airyu]

Hello William,

In Sayoc Kali there are a wide range of tactics employed to either enter on the opponent, or range away for escape. The outside range is not usually covered in many arts as it is not where the action is occurring. Therefore the emphasis on the medium and close range drills.
As for footwork, the basic triangle drills (forward and reverse) only begin to open the door for effective footwork. Beyond footwork is the intergration of the striking methodology with your footwork. Then of course putting this all together in some type of attribute enhancement drill such as sparring, or scenario defense help to bring it all together.

Gumagalang

Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[William]

Absolutely.
I bring it up because I still come across folks who haven't worked much beyond the basic triangle footwork. They get very used to working striking drills in medio to corto range and not really integrating mobility beyond that. Even one of my first FMA instructors who specialized in Corto range didn't teach much beyond that. Then again, if you think your are going to stay in that range and be successful, what's the point of ranging and bridging tactics...right? Well, I did learn a lot of good Corto range skills, but I realized then that it was pointless to think you could stay in that range at all times. With heavy armor on they would just stay in that range and duke it out. Take the armor off (go lite armor), and all of a sudden they would try to range in & out, but not emphasizing that type of foot work, they were haphazardly successful at best. I was lucky to have another FMA instructor who was visiting pull me aside and give me some valuable pointers on the importance of foot work. He liked the way I moved and saw something in me that motivated him to help me out (Thanks again Leonard). He emphasized the importance of angling, ranging, and mobility. It was a short discussion but opened up a world of possibilities to me. I essentially came up with my own style of foot work that emphasized ranging, side stepping, false stepping and angling patterns. Basically, what felt natural to me. Soon I was cleaning up in the school light armor stickfights (for light armor we just used rattan wrapped in one layer of pipe insulation and duct tape with foam head gear--you can still feel the stick through that stuff).
My later instructors were/are more versed and have a HEAVY emphasis on drilling and fighting with proper footwork, ranging , and bridging tactics (Pekiti-Tirsia). And, as you described, the three phase process of footwork, weapon striking, and then combining footwork and striking technique are:

Footwork: (Executed with/and concentrating on the following attributes)
1.) Speed
2.) Timing
3.) Power
4.) Fluidity

Weapon Striking:
1.) Proper chambering/striking positions
2.) Blade Orientation
3.) Precision in form & movement.
4.) Slow execution
5.) Fast execution
6.) Repetition.

Combining footwork & Striking.

If you aren't working much footwork in your training, you need to ask your self why? IMHO of course. Footwork is your first line of protection and provides/creates opportunities for offensive and counter-offensive maneuvering and quartering.

Keep the great comments coming folks!

William

Credit goes to Mataas Na Guro Tim Waid - PTK.

[William]

Where did everbody go?

I guess everyone is on vacation. Where are your priorities?

Hope everyone has a great new year. Train safe, Train Hard!


William

[William]

Changing the angle

I am going to take a slightly different but related tack here. A few of you
will recognize these postings I put on the DB forum from about six
months or so ago. I will post them here because I believe that adding this
type of training to your program is VERY effective at developing, speed,
offensive, counter-offensive reflexes and blade awareness to a very high
degree. Also, the ability to track the blade becomes very acute as well.
This is so very important in dealing with a blade from an offensive
and counter-offensive standpoint. This is an off-shoot of our regular
training but have found it to be highly effective...and it's a great aerobic
work out as well.

**************************************************
Greetings,

Guro John
Daniels, Guro Preston Boyd and myself, have been researching and comparing
Western bladed arts to the FMA for over a year now. We have mainly been
using heavier practice Sabers/Rapiers and daggers (Espada Y Daga, Daga Y
Daga)) with fencing masks and street hockey gloves. Just wearing regular
work out clothes, you'll now real fast if you've taken a hit. You can end up
with some nasty welts and bruises. The blades are heavier and a lot less
flexible then your standard (whippy) Epee blades. It's not fencing in the
classical sense, not at all. FMA footwork and striking techniques combined
with a little of what we have researched about Western blade techniques. It's still FMA (because of our backgrounds) but with added WMA offensive,
counter-offense, and evasive techniques. It has definitely changed the way
we apply our bladed techniques. If you play it realistically and consider
the lethality of the hits, it really advances your blade awareness (which
translates to baton as well) and evasive & offensive reflexes (by light
years). I was a little skeptical until I tried it. As ******* said, I was
also very interested to learn of how extensive the WMA bladed arts were (but
I'm still FMA at heart).

...We seem to be having a bit of a difficult time getting people to play.
The fencing folks aren't sure what we're doing because we don't stay on the
straight forward attack & retreat linear lines and we allow any targets. The
HACA folks don't seem interested in comparing/testing styles. Some of the
other FMA folks seem a little skeptical until they try it. After their legs
are taken out, or they take a thrust to the face/neck, or they get their
weapon hand/arm lopped off (figuratively speaking of course), the mask comes
off and their eyes look like saucers. Either the adrenaline is pumping and
they want more, or they leave and don't come back. We actually had a former
Green Beret come play a while back who took a Saber/Rapier hit across the
face, took his gear off and said he didn't want anything to do with it. But
he came back a week later and has been playing ever since. He considered the
hit seriously and realized that would have probably been it for him if it
were for real. And that's the whole point of doing this. In FMA, the stick
is supposed to represent the blade (many people don't make the connection).
But sparring this way, with blades, you realize real fast that the sticks
are slower and less maneuverable then the blades. Don't get me wrong here, I
love to stick fight, but it just doesn't develop the speed, offensive, and
counter-offensive reflexes and blade awareness like sparring in this manner
does. Also, you find out real fast the importance of thrusting. Guro Crafty
can correct me if I'm wrong here (and he did), but I don't believe that they
allow thrusting in the gatherings, and if they do, you don't see it happen a
whole lot. Slashing/caveman type movements are a whole lot harder to pull
off when you have an opponent who is using thrusting techniques (with a
blade). Its not impossible, but your footwork and angling have to be right
on, and again, that's the whole point of doing it. These attributes develop
a lot faster training in this manner. If you play it this way, and
realistically (and you'll know if you've been hit) consider the hits and
what they would have done to the body (arm/hand lopped off, thrust to the
face, to the biceps, the midsection, groin, or hamstringed....) you come
away with a whole new view of appreciation for the effectiveness of the
FMA's. Again, if anyone wishes to train or spar with us please
drop us a line....

...A little over a year ago, Guro Boyd brought some fencing
gear with him and convinced us to "play" a bit. The increased tempo and
speed, as well as being able to track the blade were quite difficult at
first. Also, it was immediately apparent where you took a hit because of the
welts that were raised. We realized very quickly the effect that training in
this manner had in developing our speed, offensive, and counter-offensive
reflexes, footwork and blade awareness. These attributes are developed at a
much faster rate then what we had experienced before. We immediately went to
the heavier and less flexible training Saber/Rapiers and daggers. We started
training Espada Y Daga, but quickly branched into single sword, double
sword, Daga, and double Daga. More recently we have been experimenting with
sword and shield. We will also match up different pairs of weapons against
each other to test effectiveness and our abilities.
We also started researching what we could on Western/European bladed arts
and begun to test principles and techniques that we found in WMA manuals. We
found that we could effectively work a lot of the WMA techniques from our FMA
base. Through our consistent training we also re-discovered the importance
and effectiveness of thrusting techniques. Yes, thrusting techniques are in
the FMA. but very much underutilized today (as Crafty has stated).
Slashing/caveman type movements are more natural movements where as
thrusting is more of a learned technique. Once the ability to thrust
effectively has been acquired, slashing movements are harder to pull off
consistently ( if you play it realistically). Especially if your playing
Espada Y Daga where the incoming slash can be jammed/deflected with the Daga
and a thrust delivered simultaneously. With developed timing, thrusting
behind the slashes can also be quite effective. The thrust is quicker and
has less distance to travel to the target. It also cuts down on the
willingness of an opponent to try and crash in (if they spar looking at this
from a realistic stand point of using bladed weapons). Now, with that being
said, in order to counter effective thrusting techniques, you have to
develop your footwork, angling, and timing (and parrying and deflecting
techniques) to effectively counter with slashing movements.
Basically, in sparring in this manner, developing effective offensive and
counter-offensive thrusting techniques, timing and footwork force you (and
you opponent) to improve your offensive and counter-offensive slashing
techniques, timing and footwork. Which in order to counter, will force you
to further improve your thrusting abilities, which in turn will force you to
improve your slashing....on so on. This is why we feel that training in this
way improves your development at an accelerated rate. Our speed, offensive,
and counter-offensive reflexes , footwork and blade awareness were markedly
improved in a short period of time. And it immediately transfers over to
knife, stick work and open hand as well. As I stated before, If you play it
this way, and realistically (and you'll know if you've been hit, also see
side note below) consider the hits and what they would have done to the body
(arm/hand lopped off, thrust to the face, to the biceps, the midsection,
groin, or hamstringed....) you come away with a whole new view of, and
appreciation for the effectiveness of the FMA/WMA bladed arts.
If anyone is interested in training or getting together to spar, please drop
us a line. Your always welcome.

BTW, we are in the process of video taping so we hope to have visuals
available at a later date.

Side Note: (I believe we have this one on video. It's from earlier in our
study) We had an SCA guy come and play with us one day. A very aggressive
fighter who liked to crash in. Really more in the manner of "running amok".
Once, when he was able to parry one of my strikes, he crashed in and I did
my impression of a Singer Sewing machine with my dagger to his midsection.
Realistically, we probably both would have died, him being disemboweled, me
possibly bleeding to death (I deflected his sword which became pinned flat
between us and I had jammed his dagger hand). If he wanted to commit suicide
by running amok. he was successful. But most people want to live to battle
another day. And trying to get into a standing grapple is not very smart if
I have a dagger waiting for you when you get in. He was used to wearing
heavy leather armor and exchanging blows. We train to hit without being
hit. And we know real quickly if we are, instant feedback. I look at this
the same way the DB's look at wearing heavy armor and how it causes some
people to take shots to get in. Use as little armor as possible. You will
get bruised. You will get welts. But those represent where you took a
thrust, or a slash. That is your feedback and you warning to change your
tactics and improve your game.
Hope to hear from, or see some of you in the future.

Guro William


William

[William]

Are you...?

Do you know what length blade you can legally carry in your state or country? Do you know what constitutes a "concealed" weapon as it pertains to knives?

I did some studying up and found some interesting information for the laws as they pertain to Rhode Island. Much different and quite a bit more stringent then where I just moved from. I would certainly recommend that you become familiar with your local laws/ordinances, fines and jail time can be quite steep.

Food for thought.

William



Hmm, 3" blade length. I foresee a trip to the "hardware" store in my future.

[William]

Working on a new project.

FYI, myself and one of my students are developing a training knife (double and single edged) that will mark you with washable ink if you get slahed or stabbed. I know there are some similar type products out there but we belive we have come up with something that will blow the others out of the water (versitility and ease of use). I'll let out more details as we get closer to actual production.

William

(get ready Phil )

[Airyu]

Hello Again,

It sounds like the product you are trying to develop is the same or similar to the "No Lies" blade I have seen advertised lately.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

https://www.Sayoc.com

[William]

Not going to say too much....yet.

It sounds like the product you are trying to develop is the same or similar to the "No Lies" blade I have seen advertised lately.

Similar, yet different. Actually, until today, I hadn't even seen that product. I had heard the name recently but looking at the actual product was a first.


William

[ghostwolf0]

I have to agree with Chalambok on this one. I know Al and he is right. You absolutely have to deal with the first attack(if you don't the rest is moot) and quite honestly most people cannot deal with a serious attack (not the crap attack most people practice) and draw their own weapon. In my opinion if you do have the time to draw your knife, then it wasn't really a serious attack. William is also correct in saying you've about enough time to make three strikes and then you need to get out. Two reasons 1) if your three strikes work (and every instructor tells you that their's does) then that is sufficient to end the encounter and "staying in" and continuing to fight will only land you in jail (but the bright side is you'll be able to get lots of practice there)...2) the longer you "stay in" (regardless of what the instructor says)the greater the chance of you getting killed. Remember? ....if you can touch him, he can touch you.....
And by the way....footwork is the key!

[William]

and quite honestly most people cannot deal with a serious attack (not the crap attack most people practice) and draw their own weapon. In my opinion if you do have the time to draw your knife, then it wasn't really a serious attack.

This is something that I posted over on Burton's section that I think has some relevance here:

I prefer to think counter-offensively. I tend to walk around in yellow alert mode in public areas (and my own home after I've been gone for a while). Experiences in my life have led me to operate in this manner. I don't walk around thinking someone might jump out of every dark corner, it's second nature now and I don't stress over it. If you were walking with me and didn't know me real well you wouldn't even know I was doing it. I can carry on a conversation with you while I check out who and what is around me or coming up as we move about. I make mental notes about possible ambush areas, people or places that would put me at a disadvantage in a confrontation. In some situations one of my weapons will already be deployed ( as a precaution ). One example: as I exit my car (our art studio was in a very industrial part of town with many homeless, train hoppers and druggies around) when arriving to work at 5:30 a.m. A number of times I have had people hop out from behind train cars or dumpsters hitting me up for money or chattering nonsensically (BTW, I've seen many of these people down here with a wide array of weapons that run the gamut, from metal pipes to box cutters). I give these areas a wide berth and my blade is already deployed as I approach. I haven't been attacked down here yet, but I am ready to go at all times. People who don't train weapons all that much always chirp in that you won't have time to get your weapon out. In many situations, that is true. But, guess what, chances are...mine is already out & ready to go.
Once I get into the studio and scan the area, I forget about and go to work. Once I lock up at the end of the day and walk out, I'm back into yellow alert mode until I get home. As I said earlier, I don't stress it, it's just what I do - second nature.

William