Cool video clip

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

There is a new very cool video up on the Atienza Kali website. It demonstrates the use of the mass attack strategies and preparation for real world application on the street.
Check it out at www.Atienzakali.com then click to the video section it is at the top of the list.

Train Hard, it is the Way!

Guro Steve L.

[chris davis 200]

Link doesnt work mate!

can you check it and re post.

cheers
Chris

[Airyu]

Hello,
All set there was an added comma.

Guro Steve

[jesse7]

I watched the video.

It was a pretty cool video .. yep .. well the first half of it anyways, it was realistic.

The second half was just crap .. it shows all the unrealistic blocking of knife attacks etc.

But the video is at least well done.

[Airyu]

Hello Jesse 7,

Thanks for your comments on the video. But where did you see them blocking the knife? My understanding of the Atienza strategy does not involve a direct block to the blade, but instead a footwork based evasion while countering. Go back and look at it again and see if you see what I am saying.


Train Hard it is the Way!

Guro Steve L

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[jesse7]

He doesnt block the knife .. He blocks the arm swinging the knife.

I counted at least 6 times that he blocks the knife arm. But of course the block doesnt connect 90% of the time because they are just acting. Even if whatever is happening is not supposed to be a block .. his wrists/hands come within inch's of the other guys blades more than 6 times. His body is usually in an ok possition though I guess. Hes just asking for a cutting.

You are fooling yourself if you believe this kinda crap is possible.

Read the knife post .. I think its is Fillipino forum.

[Airyu]

Hello Again Jesse,

I really have to disagree with your analysis. First, each time the defender is attacked you can see him slide to one side or the other, and then tap the attacking limb out, or cut it first and then tap it down. Second, note where many of the taps touch the arm, not a few inches from the blade. The counter attack is quick and most likely fatal to his opponents.

In other Filipino arts, let's use Pekiti Tirsia for an example, in live blade training, you step off the line of attack and then immediately counter on the attackers limb. This is usually taught in the Contradas. Also, you will note in the earlier knife post, that most of the scenarios being dealt with already assumed you where in a dueling position, and then the counters happened, to which I have already replied various tactics to train in.
Also, there have been many times whenI have been in training and passed by an attack and not touched the passing limb due to the avoidence in the footwork and body mechanics. Especially when done at high speed and with a serious stick or blade coming in .

If I might ask, what arts do you practice? This is just to give me a reference to where we can discuss certain items from a common starting point.

Train hard it is the way!

Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

[jesse7]

Have you red the knife post?? sounds like you havnt.

I have trained in Karate then MMA Streetwise Martial arts. The Karate teaches exactly as you have discribed.. you step offline then do pretty much exact in those videos. (I have also recently taken up Muai Thai).

Anyway .. our teacher was not a moron .. he show'd us all this stuff, then he would say .. In reality this doesnt work half the time and your best bet is to try and avoid conflict or to run.

He demonstrated how easy it was to get stabbed. Him having 16 years of training behind him and me having only just started and had no knife training. I would attack him with a bit of chalk .. which is not very long at all. At first he was trying to step offline or block or whatever with no counter attacking .. I got him about half the time. Then he counter attacked as well .. and I got him more.

The multiple attacker part is just hilarious. Dont get yourself cut/stabbed by fooling yourself .. seriously ask one of your mates that has no training/skill with a knife to try and stab you with chalk.

[ryanhall]

Guro Steve,
I thought the video was interesting, if pretty unrealistic. The knife work was cool, but once again, not within the realm of possibility. Aside from the fact that you will never get into a fight with multiple opponents in which you all weild the same weapon (a knife in this case), I didn't like the way that the "defender" was passing his off arm so close to his blade. He is obviously a skilled kali practitioner, but I would hate to see him catch his foot on the pavement and slit his own wrist (very possible). Hell, adrenaline alone would make passing your off arm around the blade a dangerous move.

The attackers didn't look as if they were serious about getting him towards the end of the clip. Like you said, footwork is the best defense against a knife, but that was unreal. He would have been cut many times in the affray, even if he did manage to make it out alive. All the fancy waving of the blade detracted from the realism quite a bit. Think about it like this: would you like to try to take a blade from a 5 year old child? I wouldn't. That's how dangerous a knife can be. Three guys with knives? Fuhgeddaboutit. Luck and viciousness would be the words of the day if you wanted to get out alive. That reminds me of something Marc MacYoung said: "what if 20 ninjas with uzis jump me in an alley? Bye Bye!" That said, I would be very interested in seeing some empty hand v knife clips if you wouldn't mind posting them. I'm a big kali fan . Thanks for the link.


Ryan

[Airborne SGT]

Dear Jesse 7,

With the greatest respect to your Karate instructor, we have run the mass attacks in real time against Guru Carl (the one in the video). We were using metal knife simulators but Guru Carl left me and my three classmates clutching our arms and various body parts and w/ no doubt that he was untouched. I will ask him if we could use chalk as per your suggestion. You and I share very similar traits in which we trust the advice and opinions of our instructors but we still want to see it work for ourselves. I can tell you that I have always attacked with extreme intentions and I'm always left amazed when I'm stopped.
I am glad that you have expressed your opinions because I'm sure that there are many others who have seen the video and share similar thoughts. I can see that you take martial arts very seriously. As such, until you have seen and/or experienced it work for you, you are not going to believe anything that is written or said by any stranger in a forum. Hopefully, you can see this for yourself and judge it.
As for myself, I'm an ex-military Airborne Infantry sergeant from Fort Bragg, who've trained w/ several Special Forces units from around the world. The Atienza Kali the best blade system that I've ever encountered. I would NEVER waste my time on something that "might or will never" work. In fact, several real - life situations have occured to some members of the Atienza Kali system, under extreme conditions and they have all came out of it relitavely unscathed. I look forward to your continued thoughts.





Airborne SGT
" FIX BAYONETS!!! "

[jesse7]

AirBone, Great too see you visit this forum.

Great post!

My sensai is but a mare peon. But I do trust him. I have seen this same thing demontrated by the shihan of our club. Vs a white belt.

Anyways .... I never said it never works ... I said about half the time.

There were some moves I was shown that worked jsut about all the time .. like kicking the knife from someones hand .. in order to do this you were required to have thick soleed footware etc.

The knives you were using .. they looked like even though if blunt would still hurt if you jabbed someone .. even cause serious damnage. This is why I say try it with chalk (we use think bits about the size of three fingers). Because you can attack with maximum aggressivness and cause minimal pain to your oponant.

I do belive that there are people out there that are successful enough to disarm others with knives "ALOT" of the time without takking injury or serious injury, but realistically there is not many that can, and too teach your students to think they can would be silly.

In the video ... (I dun wanna nit pick here but) all the attacks are almost all down wood thrusts with the blade facing down ... to the face ... or too the face/neck. Personally if I was going for someone with a knife I would be going for the gut/hards/arms/face/neck, not just this area.

But no doubt you train this as well.

I dont doubt any of what you say, with some members being in situations and coming out unscathed. Although their training obviously helped them .. Im also gona have to put it down to luck. For me Id rather just run. Esp if there is more than one person.

But great video! some nice effort was put into it!

[Dianne]

In all of my 3yrs of training as a 27yr old woman.. I thought I would never see a violent encounter and I always thought that I could run away from such...- up until this recent situation; where I tried to avoid an attack by running away & I got caught...(Busy streets of NYC).

I would say..w/out the mass attack training...I would not have gotten out of this situation w/ just a bruised jaw & knee.

Guro Carl has always said most street fights are never one on one....now I believe it.

Dianne
Atienza Kali

[RyanS]

Interesting conversation. I thought I would put in my 2 cents.

I have known the Atienza bros for a while. I hung out with the Atienza brothers in my late teens, early 20’s. I have learned a few things from them. Although I haven’t seen them for years I felt that what they had to offer was true back then as it is now. They spent many years growing up in the streets and I had a chance to put their combat system to the test. Simply put….very affective….very true.
I myself originally grew up in LA and have gotten into my fair share melees (I know reside in Tacoma, WA.). Believe me when I say that I am the first to always question what is real, what is the truth. From what I’ve heard, all the current students of Guro Carl are streetfighters. All victims and survivers of nasty street confrontations.
After training with Guro Darryl and Guro Allain, along many hours of questioning and doubting, I did get into a few physical confrontations involving weapons. I will not get into detail for for obvious reasons. Although, I did not leave unscathed (rare!), the antagonists were left in where they were….and I went home. I survived. What was taught to me by the brothers, what I drilled…simply worked. The video doesn’t truly justify reality because it isn’t. It is a re-enactment. A demo. With knife training, how far can one go to apply it in practice? Unfortunately, knifetraining training application cannot proven with bareknuckles like NHB or pitfighting. Truth of the blade cannot be revealed through skin on skin type exchanges. The only real proof is the few lucky(or rather unlucky) individuals who experienced it in the street. The ones who had to defend themselves not to win, but to survive a mere walk from school to their homes.
I believe someone stated, “Aside from the fact that you will never get into a fight with multiple opponents in which you all weild the same weapon (a knife in this case)….”
Again, growing up in LA, I have seen situations where gang fights occurred and yes people were attacked by 3-4 guys with knives. In some cases, people were chased by guys with machetes!!!! Many people don’t think it is possible to take on multiple attackers with knives even if the defender has a knife. But let me ask this question, if the same 3 guys were going after your father, wife or child, is it now possible to kill those 3 assailants if you had to? In my opinion,absolutely. It is the only way to think. When it comes to survival, what people tag as impossible becomes obtainable. Many people on these postings may be coming from a competition side of martial arts, the UFC mentality. But the UFC is not a real fight because rules still apply. The Atienzas come from making it home in 1 piece. Where no rules defy any competition match. That is what it’s all about to me.

It all comes down to experience and what we observed that dictates our beliefs and what we perceive as correct, realistic or true. In my case, fate, destiny, or whatever you may call it, put me into quite a few unfortunate situations as talked about in these postings. I am glad I am still here to babble on and on!! The Atienza system of knifefighting, simply put, works. Anyone with doubt, should go to one of their training sessions….. and let the truth be revealed.

NOTE: When the person wielding the knife in icepick grip is going against the assailants in the video, the attackers do not have weapons in there hands. It is multiple unarmed assailants against the one knife wielder(defender). Is it fair? Against a group of a guys it is. Just wanted to point it out. Thanks for the eyes and ears, Ryan S.

[Airyu]

Hello Again Everyone,

Sorry for the delay in replying, my ISP was crashing off and on last nite!

Anyway, I started training in Karate in the early 70’s, and my Instructor (ex Army) would show us various knife attack scenarios. Some of which led me to search out other arts to supplement my training. Jesse7 it’s great to see you training in Muay Thai, back in the 80’s a close friend of my sister from Thailand introduced me to the art and I have been hooked ever since.

Back to the video: A lot of good comments but here is my take. The adrenal response can at times interfere with fine motor coordination, especially in one who is untrained. As a practitioner develops the correct proprioception with his weapon, the likelihood that he will injure himself is significantly reduced. Training needs to include drills that approach this utilizing force on force training, scenarios, various training weapons up to and including live blades (in this case). Footwork and proper body mechanics can and will keep you alive in a multiple opponent situation. Who is to say that all the opponents may not wield the same weapon? A blade is very concealable and has become ervy increasing present in street attacks. I did not say you would be unscathed but alive so that you can give yourself a VSE, and seek medical attention if necessary.

As for luck and viciousness, I would prefer skill and viciousness any day(a little luck on the side). Any Elite Military unit, SWAT, FBI HRT, etc trains for skill and it should be no different in the Filipino Based arts.

As for disarming a 5 year old: I wouldn’t disarm any one unless the circumstances have set this up. Such as deploying Mace, my Surefire light, baton etc first, but this digresses from the video. The number 1 attack with a blade that most LEO’s encounter is the downward stab in ice pick position. So I hope that all of us use this in our training as well as counterattacking skills.

This thread is great, it opens the door to training methods, and the sharing of information that will make us all better martial artist.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Guro Steve L.

https://www.Bujinkandojo.net

ps: It is great to have the Atienza Kali students on line with us, as I am only a beginner with them, and they have much more training directly utilizing these methods. There is also a video clip of empty hand vs the blade in the list as well, so jump over and check it out.

[RR fireBLADE]

jesse7,

i was just curious if you had any knife training in the past....