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  • #16
    Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
    Well Mr Kayanan,

    I do not want to barge into your expertise..but i grew up in the PI..and all i am pointing out here..is in all my training in the PI..i have never come across a current muslim (no matter what tribe-tausug/maguindanao/maranau/subanon /and lesser tribes) who is an FMA teacher/instructor or whatever...I am not saying that they did not have a martial art...but direct connotation that Fil-Muslims have an art NOW! is not accurate in my experience...coz if there was one ..they should have somewhat even just introduced themselves to us or to any other training group.
    This all depends on what you consider a "martial art" is. One that is a combative mindset that keeps you alive or one that is taught in a limited framework.

    From the news report, it still seems that there are a lot of people who have a combative mindset in the southern islands.


    Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
    Secondly...those Moros that fought the Visaya in the olden days..were Filipinos first..then MOROS second.
    Your history is incorrect.
    There is no historical account from the journals of the Spanish that states those from the southern islands considered themselves "Filipinos".

    The term, "Moro" is from the Spanish AFTER they noted the practice of Islam in the islands. The very same Spanish who also coined the term, "Filipinos".

    So they became "Filipinos" only after Spanish arrival but a form of Islam was already on the islands. In fact, even some Visayans were friendly with Arab traders long before the arrival of Magellan.

    Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
    Being a MORO is not being an FMA practitioner..i hope this is clear.
    I'd like to know what your definition of what a FMA practitioner is.

    Btw, you do not have to make anything clear that has not been previously confused. That is a false premise.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
      ..majority if not all of the weapons on that plaque have a counterpart in non moro tribes like the dabawenyos of Samal-the T-bolis of South Cotabato The B'laan's of Agusan--they all have metallurgy and design blades for specific usage who actually/ similarly looks like those in the moroland plaque...but they are not MUSLIMS!
      Which proves my point, thank you.

      You are stating that these non muslim tribes have a knowledge of sword/weapon fighting based on SIMILAR weapons that Muslim tribes used.

      So according to your statements above - isn't it illogical to state that MUSLIMS do not have a martial art as well?

      Unless of course you believe that unless tribes practice YOUR set of patterns and credos... it is NOT FMA.

      Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
      I knew some Mansaka people from Davao Oriental and del Norte--they have their own kris like weapon...pinuti like weapon---barong and spears..they are not muslims and they fight with common sense not with a set pattern or FMA credo for a fact...
      You limit what FMA is to those who have a "set pattern" or "credo".

      I find it interesting that fighting with COMMON SENSE is not considered a MARTIAL ART.

      I primarily practice COMMON SENSE methods, so perhaps I am also not practicing FMA?

      Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
      Can I ask you a question Mr Kayanan? Have you actually lived in these parts of the PI?
      I have never lived in any mythical parts of the PI where FMA was not practiced.


      Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
      Can you even understand a single dialect aside from tagalog?
      Just curious.
      I'm doing just fine with English, how about you? I can use your words like "Common Sense" and point out "Illogical" statements.

      Everyone can clearly recognise that it isn't "curiosity" at all that sparked those series of questions.

      Btw, why not introduce yourself?

      --Rafael--

      Comment


      • #18
        here you go again Mr Kayanan..with all your scholarly antics..this will be my last response to this crazy misconception.

        1) when i said filipinos first--i did not approach in the spanish perspective..it is more of a collective perspective--o sige para hindi ka mahirapan ---they were Island/community defenders first if you will..rather than MUSLIMS.

        2)mARTIAL ART-- a set of lessons to be learned be it extensive or straight to the point.--there was no and still no MUslim tribe who shows this..i agree that tribes as i said earlier but you did not quote--fought with common sense.

        3)Being a Moro warrior (para di malisdan imong gamay nga pangsabot )-does not necesarilly encompass being an FMA practitioner (Makaintiende ka na niani agi?).

        Comment


        • #19
          My name is Ally Trino-- a native of Davao--with dabawenyo blood...my address is.

          Mt Mayon st. Davao City Philippines...that enough?

          Comment


          • #20
            If you go to Davao Mr Kayanan...I would be glad to show you around.

            Comment


            • #21
              This thread is getting interesting..

              Sun Helmet--are you the guy from The Hunted? Good job on that bro..hope to see more of your work.

              Serveinsilence- your from Mt. Mayon? Do you know Rei Subido or Import Maitum..if you do--greetings to them..tell them that Lucky said hello....I'm from Marfori Hts. before.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
                here you go again Mr Kayanan..with all your scholarly antics..this will be my last response to this crazy misconception.
                So is it SCHOLARLY or CRAZY... which phrasing will assist you to invalidate my point?

                Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
                1) when i said filipinos first--i did not approach in the spanish perspective..it is more of a collective perspective--o sige para hindi ka mahirapan ---they were Island/community defenders first if you will..rather than MUSLIMS.
                Btw, to those who do not understand tagalog, the gentleman is attempting to be condescending by stating something which of course proves my point once again.

                First of all, you nor I can not claim to know what the ancient islanders considered themselves to be. Perhaps they were Hindu, after all, the main god was a derivative of Batala. So thank you for acknowledging that they were NOT "Filipinos" first.


                Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
                2)mARTIAL ART-- a set of lessons to be learned be it extensive or straight to the point.--there was no and still no MUslim tribe who shows this..i agree that tribes as i said earlier but you did not quote--fought with common sense.
                So knowing about guns is not a martial art?

                How about guerilla tactics?

                How about surviving through the use of violence or ambush?

                How about hundreds of years of ACCOUNTED incidents where the sword was used WITH skill and effectiveness?

                Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
                3)Being a Moro warrior (para di malisdan imong gamay nga pangsabot )-does not necesarilly encompass being an FMA practitioner (Makaintiende ka na niani agi?).
                Trying to disguise a false premise by using another language does not make your statements any more logical.

                If your argument stood on solid ground you wouldn't be trying to disguise it to those who don't speak that particular dialect.

                For example, here's something in plain english:
                There were thousands of Moro warriors who knew how to use a weapon better than most "FMA practitioners".

                and another:

                I NEVER stated that FMA is exclusively from Moros, but stating that Moros do not have an inkling of FMA is an illogical conclusion. They may not have called it FMA, in fact not many people did until a few years ago, but rest assured they knew how to use their weapons as well as any "FMA practitioner".

                --Rafael--

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lionleo View Post
                  This thread is getting interesting..

                  Sun Helmet--are you the guy from The Hunted? Good job on that bro..hope to see more of your work.
                  Thanks... I was. We've been busy doing other work that isn't film related lately, mainly working with the military under our Sayoc Tactical Group.

                  --Rafael--

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by serveinsilence View Post
                    My name is Ally Trino-- a native of Davao--with dabawenyo blood...my address is.

                    Mt Mayon st. Davao City Philippines...that enough?
                    You tell me.

                    If you ever make to the states, I'll be glad to show you some history books written from first accounts. They knew it better than anyone today.
                    --Rafael--

                    "..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
                    Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lionleo View Post

                      Serveinsilence- your from Mt. Mayon? Do you know Rei Subido or Import Maitum..if you do--greetings to them..tell them that Lucky said hello....I'm from Marfori Hts. before.

                      I cant recognize the names man...asa man ka dapit sa marfori? I'll ask around the neighborhood regarding those two names.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hey guys... although I have enjoyed reading both Sun Helmet and serveinsilence I just wanted to post this small snipet from an issue of Inside Kung Fu that was published around 1997. It is the last interview that the late Ted Lucaylucay gave before he passed. I have the entire interview posted on our website if anyone is interested in reading it.


                        IKF: Your father was closeto Flora Villabralle?

                        TL: Yes, grandmaster Villabralle is fro mthe Island of Vitayan which is where my grandfather is from. The Island of Vitayan is in the Visayan Islands. Our family helped him get settled, and that’ how they came close. He became my dad’s godfather and later on he trained him. My father taught me boxing when I was a kid but I did not like it. No matter who tried to teach me that, I didn’t like boxing, but it was years later that I went back to pick up the lessons that they were trying to give me.

                        IKF: When did you start training stick work with him?

                        TL: The stick work was in my mind from the knife training and escrima we did. He used to practice on me so I learned by being a dummy so to speak, but I really didn’t get involved until after we started training with Dan Inosanto. After we started training with Dan, the escrima and the kali started coming back to him. While I was training with Dan and the escrimadors, my father would show me things and I would take off with him. It all came back to him after a while, so that when he started getting active again, and teaching, he opened up a lot more.

                        IKF: He had his own studio?

                        TL: He had a rented studio and he trained his family first, whether it was blood related or associative.

                        IKF: Why is your dad known as the father of panantucan and pananjacman?

                        TL: He was coined that because nobody was really teaching those arts. In the old days at the Torrance Philippine Kali Academy, Dan used to bring in instructors but Dad used to come in and teach the boxing exercises and rekate them to the knife. Through his contribution, he was given this title. At the Philippine Kali Academy, the art was given birth through my dad.

                        IKF: Was your dad the one who was responsible for getting the better grandmasters like Angel Cabales?

                        TL: No. He was actually more responsible for bringing in the Villabralle groups. At that time they were the only group that was known as kali practitioners. However, it wasn’t even out in the open, it was escrima and arnis that was known. The only group that was known for kali was the Villabralle school. But as it down to the Torrance Academy, it became generic and it improved the other systems who were using arnis on escrima. Today you will see all three: kali, escrima and arnis which are basically in the same family. So, it was good because all of the bickering over the name, what is kali?, what is arnis?, what is escrima?, slowed down a bit. It was a big thing then. The only real kali school at that time was the Villabralle in Hawaii, Largusa kali in San Francisco and Dan Inosanto’s school. Everyone else was studying escrima and arnis.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Great interview Tim thanks, it is good to hear about the history of the arts Stateside. It is indeed a very interesting and also confusing subject, Tatang and his uncle GM Melecio were among GM Floro's teachers (GM Melecio - Floro's uncle and Tatang - Floro's elder cousin) and they referred to the art as eskrima. Personally I prefer not to place any distinction based on the generic term used, instead focus on the specific characteristics of each style or system.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I agree with you Talibong...the names can be a very devisive point when it comes to FMA's. To me it is alot like what Bruce Lee said regarding Jeet kune Do..." it's just a name"

                            I think it is important to know and understand the history of the FMA's. However, I think it is more important to know and understand the history and background of the Filipino System that we as individuals are training in. I think if we can do that then everyone will be respected and there will not be nearly as much bickering going on. After all in the end whether you call it Kali, Arnis or Escrima or Eskrima it is all just a name that is used to describe the origins of the art we do.

                            I am glad to hear that you liked the article.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Tim McFatridge View Post
                              After all in the end whether you call it Kali, Arnis or Escrima or Eskrima it is all just a name that is used to describe the origins of the art we do.

                              Good point Tim.
                              What I have contention with are a new wave of Filipinos from one geographic region, who want to alter the actual origins that you speak of by redefining FMA into a very limited framework which of course only suits their agenda.

                              Btw, my brother and several Sayoc instructors have had the opportunity to train with Mr. Lucaylucay, Jr. prior to his untimely passing. It's good to have his words out there and preserved so that others can not monopolize discussions about his past and training.

                              --Rafael--

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Sun Helmet,

                                I always enjoy reading your comments, especially when you are dealing with history. I consider myself blessed to have had the opportunity to train with Guro Ted Lucaylucay Jr....my last memory of him (with him) was sitting in the living room with him eating ice cream and watching the movie "Dumb and Dumber"...I will always cherish that moment. He opened my eyes to alot of things especially when it came to the stick and knife. Now if I could only move like he did....

                                Comment

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