does anybody know this?

[yenhoi]

moromoro, your filipino elitism is tired.

[Kiwi]

So somebody in the US described their art as Kali and it stuck. Big deal...it's all the same when the blade hits the flesh.

Kiwi

[thekuntawman]

the kali issue is not about a name. there are people who name there philippine martial arts after karate, tae kwon do, jujitsu, even make up the names, like yaw yan (sayaw ng kamatayan). no body has a problem with that.

but there is a problem when you have a person, filipino OR foreigner, who tells the uneducated martial arts people that, kali is older, better, more complete etc, then the other filipino arts. and then a bigger problem, is when somebody says, that his art of kali IS the art of kali that we read about in the magazines and books.

then, which i think is funny, is how a non-tagalog speaker, tells us there is so many dialects of the filipino people, how do we know "kali" is not one of them?

so how do you? maybe tae-phil do is one of the filipino dialects too.

[moromoro]

moromoro, your filipino elitism is tired.

well i dindnt think you cared


As kuntawman has stated its not about the name you can call it KALI all you want thats cool....

and hes right theres plenty of different types of names e.g escrido, Mig-Sune-Do, COJUKA, CAM-MASO.....

but there is a problem when you have a person, filipino OR foreigner, who tells the uneducated martial arts people that, kali is older, better, more complete etc, then the other filipino arts. and then a bigger problem, is when somebody says, that his art of kali IS the art of kali that we read about in the magazines and books.

Main myth is the kali lapulapu link......

THIS IS THE PROBLEM..... Lucky this doesnt exist in the philippines but it is rampant in america thats to our good pal a JKD master
with all due respect he should do something to correct this...

[haumana2000]

From Kuntawman's website:

If you crave authentic Southeast Asian Martial Arts that are not watered down or training that is not compromised, then give us a call…

(1st art on the list... Filipino Kuntaw Karate!)

(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

(Authentic Southeast Asian Martial arts?? here's the list

Typhoon Karate is a combination of Chinese Kung Fu, 2 styles of Filipino Kuntaw (Gatdula and Boggs Lao), Southeast Asian-Style Kick-Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Presas style Arnis, and Gatdula system Fighting Eskrima.


Typhoon Karate is the style developed by Punong Guro Mustafa Gatdula during the mid-1990s.

(Dayum thats ancient!)

Kuntaw is the family fighting system of our Head Instructor, Mustafa Maurice Gatdula. There is a great debate concerning the origin of Philippine Kuntaw, but most agree that Kuntaw originated in China, and arrived in the Southern Philippines through trade with Chinese sailors and emigrants. Kuntaw and its cousin art, Silat, are bare handed and blade-fighting arts practiced by the Moslems of that region
(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.

Gatdula-style Fighting Eskrima

The Gatdula system of Eskrima is called our “Fighting Eskrima”. We use the term “fighting Eskrima” to differentiate our system from the classical forms more popular today. While many styles of Eskrima employ several weapons throughout their curriculum, Gatdula’s Fighting Eskrima (GFE) specializes in only two weapons: the single stick and the single knife.

(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

[William]

I've seen this debate pop up so many times on this and other forums that I have generally been in the habit of staying out of it.

Kali-Eskrima-Arnis, three different terms that refer to a very similar vein. The argument always gets thrown out that Kali is a word that can't be found or that words that have fragments of it are not the source. "It's an American thing", or "not of Philippine origin".What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino. They are only in use because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines for 300+ years. What terms were used before that? Since most of the written history was destroyed by the Spanish, can you say for certain that Kali was never used? If you want to ride people for using the word Kali because it's "not of Philippine origin", then you better get on them for using Eskrima or Arnis, because they aren't of Philippine origin either.
If on the other hand, you are offended that it's sometimes referring to a "more complete" or "mother art", that's another thing.

BTW, I have two shows taped from the Philippines that refer to Kali on national television. One is Good Morning Asia, the other is a show called Gameplan. So, it's been used and heard nationally in PI.

It is what it is. My Kali will cut or crush reguardless of whether you believe in it or not.

William

[haumana2000]

Well said William, bythe way, the UFC type competition URCC that is held in the PI, regularlay has guys that fight under the Kali banner, or Dumog, or Yaw Yan. So yes it is known there.

[krys]

What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino. They are only in use because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines for 300+ years. What terms were used before that? Since most of the written history was destroyed by the Spanish, can you say for certain that Kali was never used? If

The "Philippines islands" were never totally conquered by the spaniards.
The mountaineers of Luzon, lumads of Mindanao and muslims were never under direct control of the spaniards, so why do we not find the word kali in their language?

The different tribes of the Philippines engaged in warfare before the arrival of the spaniards. There are plenty of good filipino historians and anthropologists so why did none ever come up with this Kali?
I believe that our favorite kalifornian master should share his sources with this peoples, I am sure they would be interested by his fabulous knowledge.


This Kalifornian JKD master claims that the elusive art of Kali is practiced by the so called "moros" of the south. What tribe? The Tausugs? The Sama? The Yakan ? Show me one practicing Kali...
In Sulu? Where In sulu?
Can somebody give me an answer?

This is all nonsense and pure fantasy....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.
Don't let them bring the arts down.....

[haumana2000]

I don't do inosanto system, in fact Ive fought some of his guys before, and found them to be arrogant and moer concerned about theyre lineage (Mr. Inosanto) than their skill. But... I do know that Mr. Inosanto did not make up the term Kali, in fact you other Pinoys know that as well. It was taught to him by not just one but several sources, and he's paying respect as to what he was taught. I dont agree with everything they teach, but im talking strictly about the word KALI here. The word was taken from the Maragtas along with the ten datu theory which for a long time was taken as the definitave work on the philippine pre-history. Yes it has been gleamed that now it more of a collection of legends than actual history. But along with Otley Beyer, this has been one of only a few attempts at disseminating the PI's rich pre-history. The main scientific theory is that the first Pinoy's came to Palawan and on to the PI, from Malaysia. The word Kali exists there in several forms. The Sri Vishaya Empire of Hindu origin has Kali as the goddess of war, and the Kathakali theatere drama which hosts many battle scenes. In fact Many culutres in the PI, are still lingually tamil based. It can be found there. If you look at traditional indian stick fighting Silambam, or kalaripayyatu there are suprisingly so many similarities to Filipino and indonesian martial arts it's scary. the native dialects of Palawan host the Word Kali, which refers to an outcast. There is also a village festival called Kali-Kalihan Festival held every november in the PI, celebrating Filipino arts and culture including the martial arts. Im not trying to justify that it is correct, and true. Just that the word does exist, and has many times martial connotations. I teach my guys, all of the theories that Ive learned of, encourage them to research for themselves, and make up there own mind. I guarantee, noone has a text that says it doesnt exist, why??? cause a written history doesnt exist. It is based upon legends, and word of mouth, and as filipinos you learn and respect what your ancestors, and elders teach you. I am speaking of history in general. I usually agree with the Kuntawman, but I think we need to give old inosanto a break, at least he had the balls to show the world an art that prior few knew existed. He also gave many wayward, young Pinoys me included a strong proud filipino warrior spsirit that we could look up to, and strive to perpetuate, so we didnt all have to take taekwondo or kung fu, and say look what we have, can we please be chinese?

[William]

What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino.....If you want to ride people for using the word Kali because it's "not of Philippine origin", then you better get on them for using Eskrima or Arnis, because they aren't of Philippine origin either

And...

BTW, I have two shows taped from the Philippines that refer to Kali on national television. One is Good Morning Asia, the other is a show called Gameplan. So, it's been used and heard nationally in PI.

It's interesting, of the five or six times I have brought up these two points with others on the "No Kali" bandwagon, I have yet to have anyone respond directly to them.

The "Philippines islands" were never totally conquered by the spaniards

That is well understood. But they did control the majority of the country.

The mountaineers of Luzon, lumads of Mindanao and muslims were never under direct control of the spaniards, so why do we not find the word kali in their language?

Maybe those groups never used that term. But that doesn't really mean much since the majority of the Islands were under Spanish control and cultural destruction. People were tortured and killed for breaking Spanish laws. If religious and martial practices are outlawed, punishable by torture or death, how long will they survive intact? Parents my not teach children or pass on certain things for fear of what could happen to them if they were caught. Now, I'm just speculating on this but I don't think it's that far off. I have read some of the accounts (from Spanish history) of what happened to native Filipinos during the occupation for breaking Spanish law, and the vast majority were quite heinous. All I am saying here is that it's not at all impossible for many things to have been lost over that time. Was the term Kali one of them? I can't say it was....and you can't say it wasn't.

The different tribes of the Philippines engaged in warfare before the arrival of the spaniards. There are plenty of good filipino historians and anthropologists so why did none ever come up with this Kali?

Historians study history, usually written history. Since little to none survived, what do they have to go on? Word of mouth? Oral history is quite problematic and prone to either distortion (over time) or dieing out. What ever the pre-Spanish arts of war were called, I think it would be quite possible for it's term to die out over a hundred years let alone 300+ years of Spanish occupation.. If it wasn't originally called Kali, what was it called? It certainly wasn't Eskrima or Arnis. The fact that a large portion of the systems refereed to themselves as one or the other is a pretty good indication that the original terms were lost. If you don't know what it was called, how can you claim that it wasn't Kali (or anything else for that matter).

I believe that our favorite kalifornian master should share his sources with this peoples, I am sure they would be interested by his fabulous knowledge

Well, I don't train under Mr. Inosanto. One of my instructors is an instructor under him, but then he was a highly placed instructor under Ernesto and then Roberto Presas and trained in the Philippines before he hooked up with him. I like Humana teach my students what I was taught, but encourage them to research for themselves.

I have said this many times on this forum in the past, and I'll say it again. Regardless of what you call it, what's most important is that you can "Walk the Walk". Leave the talking and baton twirling to others.

And on that note, we should be working together to keep these arts from getting watered down to a Mc Dojo art. Work together to keep the combative nature of the FMA's alive and thriving. Not bickering about what can or can't be proven.

William

[moromoro]

Iam sick of this KALI Garbage!
PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT CHRIS POST IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE..

the other post particularly by haumana and william are just down right ridiculous.......

The word Kali exists there in several forms. The Sri Vishaya Empire of Hindu origin has Kali as the goddess of war, and the Kathakali theatere drama which hosts many battle scenes. In fact Many culutres in the PI, are still lingually tamil based. It can be found there.

Yes they host the word but they are not from the philippines, how many times have you seen when people realise that Kali is not used in FMA in the philippines the westerners (KALIFORNIANS) say it is shortened for other words... just lame excusses...

It's an American thing", or "not of Philippine origin".What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino. They are only in use because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines for 300+ years.

well then if eskrima and arnis are not filipino what is filipino.......
I think this shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.. our major languages of bisaya, tagalog, waray, bicolano, pampamgueno, ilongo...... HAVE ALL BEEN INFLUENCED BY THE SPANISH LANGUAGE....... now according to YOU THESE ARE NOT PILIPINO???????????

the only languages that could be said to be not influenced are that of the tausug, magindanao and other tribes....... Now are these people more PILIPINO THAN OTHER PILIPINO.. DO YOU KNOW OF THE HISTORY OF THE WORD PILIPINO (filipino)....??? when the spanish ruled Natives where not allowed to call themselves filipino this was reserved for the spanish settlers who now lived there......!!!!!!!!

!

... I do know that Mr. Inosanto did not make up the term Kali, in fact you other Pinoys know that as well.

i think every one knows this but he is the one who popularised the term........YOU KEEP SAYING KALI EXISTED AND HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT IT DIDNT EXIST?? NOW I WILL ASK YOU HOW DO YOU KNOW IT DID EXIST.........??????/// YOU SEEM TO TAKE THE WORD OF VILLABRILLE TO HART THIS MAN WAS KNOWN TO DRASTICALLY BEND THE TRUTH.....DO YOU TAKE HIS WORD THAT KALI EXISTED...........

ITS FUNNY how in CEBU the center of FMA no one knew of the term until inosanto popularised it..........

it is also funny how the greatest advocates of the term kali are U.S.A born (maybe you folk are from KALI FORNIA

i think thats where the origin of KALI lies.......... give it a rest this word is not a historical term for eskrima, arnis

look at it as a new name for arnis eskrima............

terry

It is what it is. My Kali will cut or crush reguardless of whether you believe in it or not.

us folk here in Cebu would love to see you back up that statement........... dont love yourself too much

[moromoro]

(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

i dont know what your problem is but give it a rest.. the kuntawman is probably one of the few people in these forums who is teaching FMA for what it is...
and if you learn with him youll probably get a sence of what it is like to learn in the philippines (for those of you who havent trained there....)

whats worng with calling it fighting eskrima.....ESKRIMA IS FOR FIGHTING>>>>

man you probably learn KALI and are now trying to put his art down....... GROW UP

[terry]

William,

I agree with your statement of oral history involving martial arts being problematic. I've taken some grad level history courses, and they tell you: You basically can't make any factual assertion unless it is footnoted and refers to a credible source. 'Credible' are generally not the opinions of martial artists but things like court records, birth certificates, church records, death certificates, eyewitness accounts (suspect), forensic evidence, archaeological evidence, primary historical research, etc.

There is a method they teach for doing oral history, and, guess what, it involves a lot of rigorous cross checking of facts between independent sources and documentation of the anomalies. Oral history is considered less reliable than the kind of history that is based on hard documentation. But it's better than nothing.

Now what most martial artists do, me included, is believe the sincerity and credibility of their instructor--and repeat their statements. Frequently as fact. But when you're writing history or historiography you can really only attribute a statement to your teacher or to another source. And that's where things get off track.

It's too bad that there aren't more people out there that are actually working to write down the stories of the old guys. Leo Giron's son did a nice job interviewing his dad in, "Memories Ride the Ebb of Tide." And the Filipino community in Stockton had a big role to play in the research leading up to the TV show about the 1st Filipino Regiment in World War II. Of course, Don Dreger did important work on hopology and applying basic ethnographic methods to SE Asian cultures that make use of martial arts. That research needs follow-on study, don't you think?

Sadly, too few people have followed in their footsteps. Well, I can't. I have kids to take care of. But I wish that some guys would. Too many of the old guys have died out already.

Terry

[William]

Hey M&M, you might want to re-read my last post a few times to let it get past that thick candy shell of yours, or at least pull the stick out of your ass.

As kuntawman has stated its not about the name you can call it KALI all you want thats cool....

Your waffling, it’s “cool”, then you put it down. Make up your mind.

well then if eskrima and arnis are not filipino what is filipino....... I think this shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.. our major languages of bisaya, tagalog, waray, bicolano, pampamgueno, ilongo...... HAVE ALL BEEN INFLUENCED BY THE SPANISH LANGUAGE....... now according to YOU THESE ARE NOT PILIPINO

Eskrima and Arnis are of Spanish origin. I didn’t say that they haven’t “become” Filipino, I said they were not of Filipino origin. Which is part of your argument against Kali. Again, re-read what I wrote.

YOU KEEP SAYING KALI EXISTED AND HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT IT DIDNT EXIST?

Re-read….If you calm down and read it objectively, I basically say that I do not know if it did or didn’t exist. You’re the one who is so adamant that it didn’t. How do you not know that it did?

it is also funny how the greatest advocates of the term kali are U.S.A born (maybe you folk are from KALI FORNIA.......i think thats where the origin of KALI lies.......... give it a rest this word is not a historical term for eskrima, arnis

Yes, the art that is practiced by the Philippine Special Forces and broadcast nationally on Philippine television originated in the USA. Wake up son. USA born? Again, WAKE UP SON!!! Pekiti-Tirsia KALI is not of US origin, nor is its founders and current heir of US origin. The term Arnis was dropped because it is not of Filipino ORIGIN. Is Kali? All that has been proven here is that no one can prove it one way or the other. But, if next week some stone tablets or parchment scrolls were un-earthed outlining Filipino history before the Spanish occupation, what would be on it? Well of the three, I’d put my money on Kali, cause Eskrima and Arnis certainly won’t be there.

Again M&M, re-read what I posted, in the end it doesn’t matter because it can’t be proven beyond a shadow of a dought (just because you say so doesn’t count) either way. Again, you rail on Kali not being of Filipino origin, yet call your arts by a name that isn’t of Filipino ORIGIN either. Just pointing out your inconsistencies M&M.

us folk here in Cebu would love to see you back up that statement...........

Well, to M&M, all I can say is follow your own tag line son…don’t sing, bring it. I’m here.

[moromoro]

yes william

Again M&M, re-read what I posted, in the end it doesn’t matter because it can’t be proven beyond a shadow of a dought (just because you say so doesn’t count) either way. Again, you rail on Kali not being of Filipino origin, yet call your arts by a name that isn’t of Filipino ORIGIN either. Just pointing out your inconsistencies M&M.

Again, you rail on Kali not being of Filipino origin, yet call your arts by a name that isn’t of Filipino ORIGIN either. Just pointing out your inconsistencies M&M

this is the only thing i dindnt like about your post...eskrima arnis not of filipino origin..well of course they spanish words.... but if these are not filipino then our major languages are not of filipino origin according to your statement...........

It is not a question of origin,

1. the spaniish have heavily influenced our culture....
2. these terms are widely accepted by everyone practicing the arts in the philippines.....
3. also these terms have been used for over 160years.

Is Kali? All that has been proven here is that no one can prove it one way or the other.

research conducted by GM tony Diego and topher rickets have stated that the word kali was never used until yambao wrote it on his book.. they also could not FIND ANY EVIDENCE of its existence anywhere in the PHILIPPINES.........

i think the fma are big enough now so that every body knows about them. why is it that they could not find any evidence that kali existed anywhere in the philippines??????????????????????

KALI IS AN INDIAN WORD ISNT IT???????????????????

Well, to M&M, all I can say is follow your own tag line son…don’t sing, bring it. I’m here.

i dont mean to be rude but who are you, your not even one of the highest ranking members of your style.....

kamagong@eudoramail.com my email.

oh yeah we will be having a full contact no protection tournament in cebu 2004..............

thanks

Terry